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I call this meeting to order.
Welcome, everyone, to meeting number 18 of the Special Joint Committee on the Declaration of Emergency, created pursuant to the order of the House of March 2, 2022, and the Senate of March 3, 2022.
Today's meeting will take place in a hybrid format, pursuant to House and Senate orders. Should any technical difficulties arise, please advise me, as we may need to suspend for a few minutes to ensure that all members are able to participate fully. Witnesses should also be aware that interpretation is available through the globe icon at the bottom of their screen.
Before I introduce the guests, I will note that within the last 10 or 15 minutes or so, the committee did receive notice that GiveSendGo has pulled out of tonight's meeting, so there will be a bit of rescheduling of time slots. We might have some extended time that might give some grace for the Senate votes.
I did want folks to know that as we go into this round of questioning.
We are very fortunate, however, to have GoFundMe here. Ms. Kim Wilford is the general counsel.
Ms. Wilford, you have five minutes for your opening remarks—
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That is duly noted, Ms. Bendayan.
Thank you very much, Ms. Wilford, for allowing us to work through the little adjustments here. You will have five minutes, following which you will have rounds of questioning.
I would like to state as a bit of preamble that you may find from time to time that parliamentarians may intervene to take back their time, which means they may interrupt you and cut you off. It's not out of disrespect. It's just that we have a very limited and set amount of time, and often parliamentarians will need to get to their next question. Please know that it's not a personal thing.
You have five minutes. The floor is yours.
Good evening, Chair and members of the committee. It is our pleasure to join with honourable senators and members of Parliament today to discuss these important issues.
My name is Kim Wilford, and I'm the general counsel of GoFundMe.
At the outset, I would like to thank the committee for its important work to review the exercise of powers pursuant to the public order emergency declared under the Emergencies Act.
As a global brand that complies with laws and regulations in all jurisdictions where we operate, GoFundMe takes no position on the propriety of the Canadian government’s use of the Emergencies Act; however, we are happy to discuss the events of this past January and February and the actions that we took as a company.
GoFundMe is the world’s most recognized and most trusted fundraising platform. Our mission is to help people help each other, with a goal of being the most helpful place in the world. We are humbled that GoFundMe has become a noun synonymous with receiving help and assisting communities. That impact is far-reaching, as we have delivered over $17 billion in assistance to communities in 19 countries since the company began over a decade ago.
In Canada, we are now delivering around $200 million in community assistance each year, including funds raised for significant events such as the Humboldt Broncos fundraiser in 2018, the floods in British Columbia this time last year and, most recently, hurricane Fiona.
GoFundMe aspires to be the benchmark for responsible operations in the social fundraising space, and many of our employees are dedicated to trust, safety, platform integrity and compliance. Our decisions and policies are guided by our terms of service, which are posted publicly and outline what is permissible on our platform. Fundraising campaigns relating to misinformation, hate, violence and intolerance of any kind are not permitted under our terms.
Before we provide a timeline of events for the “freedom convoy” fundraiser, I would like to thank the City of Ottawa authorities for their partnership and collaboration. As the only level of government to interact directly with GoFundMe during this situation, the partnership was essential to understanding what was happening on the ground so that we could make the best possible decisions relative to our policies.
The “freedom convoy” fundraiser was created on January 14. We began to actively monitor it the next day, based on donation velocity. Our initial analysis concluded that it was within our terms of service. On January 27, we initiated, through our payment processing partner, a single distribution of $1 million Canadian to the financial institution of the “freedom convoy” fundraiser organizer.
Following this disbursement, public statements from the fundraiser organizer began to shift in tone and, on February 2, we suspended the fundraiser. This effectively meant that all future donations and withdrawals were paused.
From February 2 through 4, we heard from local authorities, namely the City of Ottawa and Ottawa police, that what had begun as a peaceful movement had shifted into something else, with reports of violence and threats. We commenced a review of where donations were coming from, and our records show that 88% of the donated funds originated in Canada and that 86% of donors were from Canada.
On February 4, following dialogue with the fundraiser organizer and her team as well as continued updates of concerning incidents from local authorities, it became clear that the fundraiser no longer complied with our terms of service. We removed the fundraiser from our platform and provided donors with the option to request a refund or have their donations delivered to credible and established charities chosen by the fundraiser organizer and verified by GoFundMe.
As of February 5, refunds were initiated via our payment processing partner, including all transaction processing fees and tips, and funds were returned to donors.
GoFundMe does not directly interact with or hold any funds, nor are we able to redirect those funds to ourselves or anyone else. All donations are processed, held and paid out by our payment processing partners. It's important to note that there are multiple layers in the regulatory framework surrounding social fundraising on GoFundMe. Our trust, safety, platform integrity and compliance teams work to ensure that we provide the most safe and secure environment for our users. That's the first layer. The second layer comes from the similar functions implemented by our payment processors. Third, our processors are bound by and rely on banks, card networks and their associated regulatory requirements. Lastly, crowdfunding platforms in Canada must now register with FINTRAC, which we did as soon as the requirement was enacted.
In closing, GoFundMe believes that responsible action is core to social fundraising. That's why we proactively invest in the tools, teams and processes to earn the trust of our users and the regulators.
We hope that this provides useful context to your ongoing review, and I'm happy to answer any questions that the committee has.
Thank you.
Good evening, Ms. Wilford. Thank you so much for agreeing to attend and for sharing your knowledge with respect to your company's involvement in this particular matter.
I know that you touched upon it briefly in your summary, but I want to put to rest a lingering thought that really has been percolating, and is still percolating almost to this day, around this particular protest. It basically had its origins pretty much the day the convoy arrived. It was this whole concept that this was a foreign-influenced movement. It was that foreign monies, predominantly, were flowing into this country to subvert our democracy. I know that you touched upon a statistic that clearly puts that to rest, but I want to put things in more perspective for you before I ask you the question.
This is a campaign that really started, right from the get-go, right from the , numerous cabinet ministers and a number of governing members of Parliament. When you attended the finance committee, one Liberal MP even suggested that there was a Russia connection. In fact, the comment was for you or Mr. Benitez—I don't know whom the question was put to. It was, “We know that Russia has been engaged in misinformation warfare for years...$1 trillion in Russian dark money that is circulating and dedicated to undermining our democracy.”
That was followed up by a question put to you by a Conservative member which basically said there was a little bit of irresponsibility in speculating about a Russian government connection. He asked you, “Did you uncover any connection between the illegal protests...and the Russian government?”
Mr. Benitez, the president of your company, responded, “12% of the donations came from outside of Canada. There was virtually only perhaps a handful, at most, of donations from Russia.”
Do you accept that as well, Madam?
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If you wouldn't mind moving that, then we'll just go ahead with that motion on the floor.
I look around the table. Is anybody opposed to that motion?
(Motion agreed to)
The Joint Chair (Mr. Matthew Green): We will continue with the questioning.
Senator Harder, I would like to note that, as a chair, I'll ensure that all members of the Senate who return from the vote have priority in their questioning, regardless of where the round is.
Thank you.
My apologies, Mr. Brock. Feel free to begin your question from where you were. You have about two minutes left, but I'll be generous.
As I was indicating, Ms. Wilford, our national broadcast organization, the CBC, in a January 28 broadcast of Power & Politics, while interviewing very early on in the protest, accused the Kremlin of funding the convoy. It was a claim that the CBC had to walk back days later.
She said, “I do ask that because, you know, given Canada's support of Ukraine in this current crisis with Russia, I don't know if it's far-fetched to ask, but there is concern that Russian actors could be continuing to fuel things as this protest grows, but perhaps even instigating it from the outset.”
Do you disagree with that as well, Ms. Wilford?
Thank you for being with us today, Ms. Wilford.
I gather from your remarks that there were a lot of developments between January 27 and February 5, developments that led you to pull GoFundMe's fundraiser, I mean Ms. Lich's convoy fundraiser.
What developments exactly led you to that decision? You touched on it, saying that Ms. Lich no longer met your terms of service. You also said that she was no longer answering your calls or emails. Could you tell us clearly what happened?
What changed with Ms. Lich between January 27 and February 5?
You said that Mr. Watson, the mayor, and Mr. Bell, the chief of police, told you that the protest was turning violent.
What did they tell you exactly? What did that violence look like? What was going on? What events exactly did you base your decision on—that is, if you were aware of them?
Perhaps your decision was based solely on the fact that you were told the protest was becoming violent. However, if you were made aware of specific events, I'd like to know what they were.
What alleged events led you to make the decision you did?
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Yes, that was my intention.
When the senators return, the floor will then revert to them. I'm the last on the list, so it's likely going to be me and Mr. Fortin who get bumped. Certainly, when they come back they will reclaim their time with the witness.
A voice: So they will have 10 minutes?
The Joint Chair (Mr. Matthew Green): No, we would put them into a round.
Does that make sense with everybody? Is everybody okay with that?
I appreciate it.
We will now turn to Mr. Brock.
Mr. Brock, the floor is yours for five minutes, sir.
Ms. Wilford, I left off in my first round of questioning dispelling and highlighting the disinformation and misinformation being spread by the Liberal government, the , the ministers associated in higher positions involving this convoy as well as our state-sponsored CBC.
Before I move on, I also want to highlight a comment our made to our House of Commons on February 9 that protest funds were linked to crime, that “we are working very hard with partners at different levels of government to make sure that the flow of funds through criminal activities is [intercepted]”.
You would agree with me, ma'am, that, by my review of all the evidence you have given so far by way of the finance committee as well as the interview with the Public Order Emergency Commission, there is no evidence that any of the funds originating to your platform were proceeds of crime.
I want to start with something, Ms. Wilford, that was put to you with respect to CBC News. I'm going to quote something because this assertion that CBC News has retracted something is categorically false. CBC News has posted what I'm quoting:
CBC News has not retracted any story about foreign donations going to the convoy protest movement. The full February 10th story, February 14th story and all others on the convoy, are still on the CBC's website in their entirety. Not only do we stand by our reporting, GoFundMe's own testimony before a Commons committee a few weeks after our story was published confirmed that 88 percent of donated funds originated in Canada and 86 percent of donors were from Canada—confirming that approximately $1.2 million of the roughly $10 million raised came from outside the country.
They further elaborate, and I would ask you about this, Ms. Wilford:
GiveSendGo testified that “60% of [their] donations originated from Canada and 37% from the United States.”
I appreciate that's a different online platform, Ms. Wilford, but when you see those types of numbers, is that outside the normal course or normal routine from what you've seen from campaigns you've been involved in at GoFundMe to see 37% of donations originating outside the country?
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Thank you very much, sir.
I want to take a moment and acknowledge, Ms. Wilford, that you came here with another set of testimonies from GiveSendGo. They've left and you've now been at this for a while with this committee. You've also, I think, participated in the inquiry as well. I thank you for being present and for availing yourself to these questions. I just wanted to say that as a chair and as a member of Parliament here.
I know that results will be coming out of the inquiry. I'm interested, in the course of my future action, in beginning to contemplate ways we can improve upon our laws and regulations, and the recommendations going back to government that might help us avoid future situations like this.
I'm still upset and actually have deep concern about the thought of $1 million coming from outside the country to a direct action like this, but I'll set that aside for a moment.
Since the declaration of emergency, legal changes have been enacted and now require online crowdfunding platforms to report large or suspicious transactions with the Financial Transactions and Reports Analysis Centre, which is Canada's financial intelligence unit.
How do these regulatory changes impact your business? What changes have you made to comply with them?
I want to recognize that the senators have returned. As per our discussions, I would like to give them the opportunity to have their interventions, given the time that we have.
I would like to let them know that GiveSendGo pulled out about 10 minutes before the meeting started. We've had the good fortune of having Ms. Wilford here providing testimony over the last hour and a half.
We have about 15 minutes, which will give each of the senators the opportunity to have a five-minute intervention or an intervention of the length of their choosing under five minutes.
That being said, Senator Harder, would you like to start?
Thank you to the witness for being here, and our apologies for being otherwise tied up with the vote.
You probably answered this question. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to watch this while I was voting. What processes do you have in place to ensure that your fundraiser isn't being used inappropriately?
I note that in the prohibited activities in the campaign section of your terms and conditions, it includes items that encourage, promote, facilitate or instruct others to engage in illegal activity and items that promote hate, violence or racial intolerance. I'm interested to know whether you've had an opportunity to review that in light of this experience, and how you see that going forward.
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I'll take the discretion as the chair.
Mr. Wells, I'll share with you that I was disappointed when I found out that you were not able to attend at the appropriate time. This is a very serious committee of the House of Commons and the Senate here in Canada dealing with a very serious topic, sir.
I will allow you an intervention that will give you the opportunity to explain yourself in terms of why you're only joining the meeting now. What I will ask, though, is that you not enter into your opening remarks, because it would be at the discretion of this committee to either invite you back formally, and we do have processes for that, or to find another allotment of time, because this is a process that requires us to be able to have interventions to ultimately get to the bottom of what happened here, sir.
I'm going to give you about three minutes to five minutes here to figure out the reason for the late appearance at this very official committee meeting.
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I do appreciate and will accept that. Thank you for making that time. I hope, obviously, on behalf of the committee, that whatever family emergency you were dealing with comes to a positive resolution.
I will state, however, that with 10 minutes left in this committee, it's probably not appropriate to deal with your intervention at this time. I would ask that you make yourself available to our clerks so they can reschedule you to come back and provide testimony at an appropriate time.
I think the testimony we had from GoFundMe was significant. It provided some really good analysis and perspective, but, of course, you're the missing piece of that testimony.
Mr. Virani, the floor is yours.
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We can if you'd like to.
A vote has been called on adding Mr. Wells to the next section of the meeting. We will proceed with the vote.
Ms. Wilford and Mr. Wells, we're going to do a little procedural accounting here and then we'll get right back to you on how we're going to move forward.
(Motion negatived: nays 6; yeas 3)
The Joint Chair (Mr. Matthew Green): At this time, I would like to thank the witnesses for being here.
Ms. Wilford, I want to thank you for standing in for the full committee.
Mr. Wells, I want to thank you as well, sir, for making yourself available at least to provide an explanation to the committee. It's certainly more information than we had based on the original emails.
Before I suspend the meeting, I do see Mr. Brock.
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Yes. I do believe that's already part of our process, although it doesn't always happen.
Mr. Wells, the request has been made to you, sir, that at the appropriate time when you're invited back to committee you provide that to the committee in writing. I believe it's within 72 hours of the actual meeting. That allows us to have it translated, as we're bilingual here. If you could provide it in advance, we could get right into the business when you return.
At this point, Ms. Wilford and Mr. Wells, that will conclude your part of the meeting.
I will suspend the meeting for eight minutes.
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I'd like to call this meeting back to order.
For the second panel this evening, we have with us, from the Canadian Bankers Association, Angelina Mason, general counsel and vice-president. From the Canadian Credit Union Association, we have Mr. Michael Hatch, vice-president of government relations.
Witnesses should be aware that interpretation is available through the globe icon at the bottom of their screen.
I'd like to welcome both of you. You'll have five minutes for your interventions.
I always like to give our guests a disclaimer—a caveat. Once we get into our rounds of questioning, you may, from time to time, have a member of the committee intervene and interrupt you to take back their time and move on to the next question. Please don't consider that to be personal or rude in any way. They have very limited time to ask their questions in order to get their answers. Please respect the fact that, when they call back their time, it's not a personal thing.
I will begin with Ms. Angelina Mason.
You have five minutes. The floor is yours.
Good evening, and thank you for inviting the Canadian Bankers Association to appear today and participate in the committee's study of the invocation of the Emergencies Act and related measures.
My name is Angelina Mason and I am the general counsel and vice-president of the CBA.
The CBA is the voice of more than 60 domestic and foreign banks that help drive Canada's economic growth and prosperity. The CBA advocates for public policies that contribute to a sound, thriving banking system, in order to ensure Canadians can succeed in their financial goals.
On February 15, 2022, the Government of Canada invoked the Emergencies Act and made associated emergency measures regulations, and an emergency economic measures order. All financial service providers, including banks, that were covered by the order became legally obligated to implement the measures, as stipulated by the government in the order.
Banks took great care to fully understand their obligations and ensure they limited the order's applications to activities that fell squarely within their intended scope. The government indicated that the measures were intended to be temporary and focused only on a narrow group of individuals and entities involved in specific activities covered by the order. The vast majority of customers were not impacted by these measures.
Upon receipt of information from the RCMP regarding individuals and entities engaged in conduct or activities prohibited under the regulations, banks acted in accordance with their legal requirements under the order. We can confirm that banks also acted quickly to unfreeze accounts once the RCMP notified financial service providers when it believed that individuals and entities previously identified were no longer engaged in conduct or activities prohibited under the regulations.
While most of these accounts have been unfrozen, it is important to remember that some may still be frozen to comply with court orders or proceedings unrelated to the invocation of the Emergencies Act.
On February 23, 2022, the government revoked the regulations and order, and the associated legal obligation of banks and other financial service providers ceased.
In closing, I will note that the Public Order Emergency Commission contacted the CBA during the investigation phase of its work. To support the commission in its mandate, the CBA provided an overview of how the banking industry responded to the emergency economic measures order, and the role the CBA played in this process. The CBA co-operated fully with the commission's council, including participating in a formal interview, providing an institutional report, and producing requested documentation.
We anticipate relevant information will be shared by the commission's counsel as part of the overview reports to be introduced during the public hearing.
Thank you for your time. I look forward to your questions.
Thank you, as well, members of the committee, for the invitation to speak with you today.
[English]
My name is Michael Hatch, and I'm a vice-president with the Canadian Credit Union Association. I worked very closely with the Department of Finance in the days in February that are now the subject of this committee's work.
The CCUA represents 211 credit unions and caisses populaires outside of the province of Quebec. Credit unions contribute nearly $7 billion to Canada’s economy by providing deposit, loan and wealth management services to 5.9 million Canadians. Collectively, credit unions employ nearly 30,000 people and manage $290 billion in system assets.
Credit unions are co-operatives, as you know. In other words, the people who bank with us are the same people who own credit unions. Being accountable to our member-owners, as opposed to shareholders, results in customer service that is second to none. We consistently rank at the very top of surveys of customer satisfaction for financial services.
For members of this committee representing rural areas, it's also important to note that for almost 400 communities across Canada, credit unions are the only providers of financial services to households and businesses.
As I mentioned, CCUA worked closely with Finance officials and the RCMP earlier this year as Emergencies Act measures were rolled out. We’d like to thank once again on the record the and her team for keeping in regular contact with us in the heat of the crisis. We're particularly grateful to senior Finance Canada officials who, on short notice, provided an in-depth briefing to our members on the financial components of the emergency orders, attended by over 600 credit union representatives from across Canada.
We do have some constructive feedback to provide on some other elements of the process if I may, Mr. Chair.
In the early days of the crisis there was the impression, not uncommon in our dealings with the federal government, that the large six banks—with respect to my colleague from the CBA, of course—were consulted or informed days before credit unions and other financial institutions. Credit unions represent almost half the financial sector in some provinces, millions of Canadian consumers and tens of thousands of small businesses. We need to be at the table in discussions with Ottawa at the same level as the federally regulated banks in all matters that directly impact our operations and our members, particularly in times of crisis such as this.
When the measures were first announced, it was very unclear to whom the financial sanctions applied. Eventually, it became clear that they were aimed at a very small list of individuals and entities. However, in the early days, there was a degree of panic among some Canadians that their accounts may be frozen due to things like small donations to the convoy. In those important days, the government was less than clear about the intended targets of financial measures under the emergency orders.
Many of our members expressed this concern, and many Canadians made significant cash withdrawals from credit unions as a result, sometimes in the hundreds of thousands and even millions of dollars. While these withdrawals did not cause liquidity issues in our sector, many credit union staff of course had to manage very unhappy members and customers. Better and much clearer communications from the government from day one could have mitigated this.
One credit union leader wrote in the heat of the crisis, “We had a tremendous amount of members very seriously concerned regarding the government’s ability to seize”—and freeze—“accounts; it brought forward a large sense of mistrust with the government that they could just seize individuals’ accounts.”
The government also granted a significant level of discretion to financial institutions regarding which accounts to freeze. This further contributed to confusion, and to possibly an uneven application of the financial components of the measures across the country. Many would have appreciated further guidance from the government on precisely which accounts should be frozen.
In the end, across our sector a very small number of credit union accounts were frozen, and for a short period of time. Our members froze a total of ten accounts with a total value of less than half a million dollars, an insignificant number given the stress that the measures put on the sector.
Our main message to the government and this committee is that credit unions need to be at the same table at the same time as the large banks whenever the federal government is enacting policy through the financial system. Our financial sector consists of much more than six institutions, and there continues to be frustration among credit unions that this requires such frequent repetition.
We hope this feedback is helpful to the government and the committee, and I'm happy to take your questions.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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In other words, you trusted that what the government was doing was legal.
Normally, generally, bank accounts are frozen as a result of a court order. There was no order this time, just the Emergencies Act regulations. Again, this was all unprecedented, incredibly unprecedented.
Would you not have felt that it was prudent to seek outside legal counsel before enacting these unprecedented measures, especially given that they had, at the very least, the appearance of being politically motivated?
I'll begin with the fact that the vast majority of accounts frozen were based solely on the list provided by the RCMP. For those ones that we were required to freeze because we had an independent duty to determine under the order, it wasn't like a blanket threshold or a dollar amount. The way we did it was to apply our normal processes for looking at unusual or suspicious activity. That by its nature would be something material to even catch our eye in the first place. It's not as simple as saying it was a specific dollar amount.
I can give one example of a case that obviously was reported, and that predated the Emergencies Act but was part of the public hearing, where all of a sudden a million dollars landed in a personal deposit account. That would have caught someone's attention because of the amount. When you look through the lens and realize it's related to the fundraising, that's when you notice something significant.
So it would be a significant event that would cause that to be noticed.
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Fewer than 10. I haven't got the exact number, but it was a very small number.
I would add, also, that some of the alarm that existed in the public at the notion that the government had the legal authority to do this was mirrored across our financial institutions as well, because freezing an account is the nuclear option. It's not something you ever want to do. It's not something you do lightly, if ever.
I can say with confidence that it's not something anybody across the sector would ever do lightly, so, to the extent that accounts were frozen beyond that list from the RCMP, it was a number that you could count on one hand.
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You're very careful with the application of this particular thing.
I want you to have the opportunity to provide reflections on what you'd like to see for federal recommendations moving forward, but, based on the look that I'm getting from my co-chair, I'll probably save that for the next round.
I'll take the floor back. I think that concludes my round, if my clock was correct.
We will continue to Senator Boniface for five minutes.
Senator Boniface, the floor is yours.
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There is no perfect approach to that question. You can't please everybody.
I would draw a distinction between something like the UN, which publishes an exhaustive list of individuals who are sanctioned globally. We check that on a regular basis and provide that communication to our members so they can check it against their membership, whereas the list from the RCMP was not exhaustive. It was small and targeted, but then there was further discretion granted to financial institutions, if they saw fit, to freeze accounts.
That obviously did not result in the mass freezing of accounts. I think some of the stories that surfaced about people having their accounts frozen because of $25 donations were, perhaps, a little bit of hyperbole, if I can put it that way.
It was troubling that the list was not exhaustive and that discretion was granted to our members because, frankly, nobody wants to have that power. They want to see the list and, if we have a member who is on that list, then that's black and white, and nobody wants to be in a grey area.
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Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I'd like to begin by quickly clarifying something.
Various members of this committee have asked questions both of Ms. Mason and of Mr. Hatch that included reference to the seizure of bank accounts. I would just like to make absolutely clear on the record, Ms. Mason, that I understand that no seizures actually ever took place. What we are talking about here is the freezing of bank accounts. Nothing was taken from these bank accounts.
It was a freeze, which then would be lifted.
Ms. Mason, is that correct?
Mr. Chair, with the time that I have remaining, I would like to move the motion that I indicated earlier with respect to GiveSendGo.
I would move at this time: That, the members of the committee call on GiveSendGo to appear before this committee by Thursday, December 1, 2022, at the latest, in order to provide the testimony that they were supposed to provide to this committee this evening.
Mr. Chair, I am open to the suggestion as to how you would like to move forward on that motion.
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Okay. I'm familiar with that. They couldn't access the large amounts of equity within their homes.
Ms. Angeline Mason: Yes.
The Joint Chair (Mr. Matthew Green): Okay. That makes sense.
I'm curious to know about the unintended consequences.
On a number of occasions, Ms. Mason, you mentioned that information had come after the fact. In fact, the Emergencies Act had been declared, and you were provided with a list and a set of instructions and you had to go back to the government a number of times for clarification.
Is it your opinion that the instructions that were provided to your association and your sector were inadequate to adequately define and execute what was asked of you?
Look, I think the purpose of this committee, at least for me, is to ensure that we don't have to get to a place like this again. Should the government ever go down a road like this, or similar to this, would it be your recommendation here today that the government provide, in its fullest abilities and in the earliest time possible, a full list of how, what, where, when, and who these orders would be executed against?
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We'd be more comfortable with a list.
Perhaps I may add, Mr. Chair, to when I was interrupted earlier, when I was asked if these actions caused a decline in trust in the system, I answered “yes, but”, and was cut off.
The Joint Chair (Mr. Matthew Green): Sure.
Mr. Michael Hatch: Yes, in those very early days, of course there was panic. People didn't know what the orders meant. They didn't know if their account was going to be frozen or not. But that didn't last very long.
Eventually, and after not very many days, in fact, a week or two, the very targeted and narrow nature of these orders became clear, to such a degree that today I would surmise that the impact on trust in the system is negligible or non-existent. We have a very sound financial system in Canada, and consumers can continue to have confidence in it.
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I agree with everything my colleague has said, and a lot of it doesn't bear repeating because we've said it many times, but, again, when the federal government is enacting any kind of policy through the financial system such as this, it should consider and consult the entirety of the financial system, be they the large D-SIBs, the federally regulated banks that everybody is familiar with, the smaller banks that fewer people are familiar with and the provincially regulated credit unions.
That would be my number one message and number one recommendation. It's a battle that we continue to fight, and this was just the most recent manifestation of the tendency that exists in Ottawa and at the federal government level to view the financial system as six institutions.
As to your broader question, respectfully, Senator, I don't think it's my job to determine whether or not it was right or wrong to pull this lever. It's up to this committee, it's up to legislators, it's up to members of Parliament, senators and ultimately the government, but it is a law that exists, it is a power that the government does have. Whether it's right or wrong, I don't see it as my job to answer that question, to be candid.
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Thank you very much, Chair.
Thank you, Senator Patterson.
Mr. Hatch, I just want to encourage you to maybe reconsider a response that you provided. You said that you didn't think that it was appropriate, given the minuscule impact that the EA had on your clients.
As Senator Boniface asked, have you done a post-mortem, or are you going to consider doing one? It's your customer base. They may have a different view, and I would encourage you to maybe, with your 200 and some branches across the country, reconsider that, because this is an unprecedented event, and I think your clients might appreciate it.
Ms. Mason, I have a question for you.
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Thank you, Chair, and I certainly concur with your ruling.
Ms. Mason, this question is for you.
As you are aware, the whole premise around the Emergencies Act was to be charter compliant. That was the rule around it. If you read the act over again, you'll see that there's a charter compliance requirement there.
In light of the government's regulations under the Emergencies Act to have a third party, namely you, the banking institutions, financial institutions, freeze accounts, do you not believe that the government was circumventing their charter obligations with respect to search and seizure?
I can say it in English, but I think we should leave it to the interpreters. I'll repeat what I said in French, if that's all right. My apologies to those who don't speak French.
We're supposed to meet with two panels, for an hour and a half each, and I was thinking it would be a good idea to cut our time with one of the panels to an hour, to give us a half-hour to discuss the work plan. That would give us time to go over it and adopt it.
We have two mayors for the first panel, so I think we should keep the hour and a half with them and cut our time with the second panel—representatives from the Canadian Trucking Alliance and the Canadian Vehicle Manufacturers' Association—to an hour. That would give us a half-hour to discuss our work plan.
:
Okay, I will state for the record as a joint-chairing person that the priority—the initial discussion—will be around the work plan. Then we'll get to whatever housekeeping items happen after that.
I just ask that there be no surprise motions or things that are dilatory that might disrupt our ability to put that to rest, because it's an ongoing administrative challenge that we've now heard raised as a point of order in meetings. It's one that I take seriously and I want to make sure that we just complete it.
Is that okay? Is everybody in agreement? Okay.
With that being said, we will reduce the second panel by a half hour. We'll have it at the beginning. Is that correct or will we have it at the end?
We'll have it at the end. That's smart. Thank you.
Is that unanimous? Do we need to vote on that? Are there dissenting opinions?
:
If I could call the meeting to order....
I get it, we're in the silly season. The Christmas tree is up and everybody's ready to go.
The point I would like to make is that we always have the ability to recall witnesses.
I'm not privy to the information you have regarding whatever bombshells came out today on the nature of the work. I don't know what it is you're talking about. I know this is an imminent meeting coming within the next two weeks, and I would ask that we respect the schedule as it stands.
I will share with you openly and on the record right now that if in the course of that meeting, it is determined we need to prioritize that witness and call them back on their own for their own session, I would be open to that. You have that as a commitment from me right here, publicly, right now.
Is that okay? Thank you.
To put this to rest, can we agree we're going to do the Fortin method on December 1 to include GiveSendGo?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
The Joint Chair (Mr. Matthew Green): Is that unanimous? Excellent.
With that being said, do we have agreement to adjourn?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
The Joint Chair (Mr. Matthew Green): Thank you.
The meeting is adjourned.