LANG Committee Meeting

37th PARLIAMENT, 1st SESSION

Standing Joint Committee on Official Languages

EVIDENCE

CONTENTS

Monday, May 6, 2002

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1530

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger (Ottawa--Vanier, Lib.))

Mr. Georges Arès (President, Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada)

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1535

¹

1540

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1545

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger)

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1550

Mr. Paul Forseth (New Westminster--Coquitlam--Burnaby, Canadian Alliance)

Mr. Georges Arès

Mr. Paul Forseth

Mr. Georges Arès

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1555

Mr. Paul Forseth

Mr Georges Arès

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger)

Ms. Thibeault

Mr. Georges Arès

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1600

Ms. Yolande Thibeault

Mr. Georges Arès

Ms. Yolande Thibeault

Mr. Georges Arès

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger)

Mr. Richard Marceau (Charlesbourg—Jacques-Cartier, BQ)

Mr. Georges Arès

Mr. Richard Marceau

Mr. Georges Arès

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1605

Mr. Richard Marceau

Mr. Georges Arès

Mr. Richard Marceau

Mr. Georges Arès

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger)

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier (Ontario, Lib.)

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1610

Ms. Diane Côté (Liaison Officer, Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada)

Mr. Georges Arès

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1615

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier

Mr. Georges Arès

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger)

Mr. Paul Forseth

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1620

Mr. Georges Arès

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger)

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier

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1625

Mr. Georges Arès

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier

Mr. Georges Arès

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier

Mr. Georges Arès

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1630

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier

Mr. Georges Arès

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier

Mr. Georges Arès

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger)

Mr. Georges Arès

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger)

Mr. Richard Marceau

Mr. Georges Arès

Mr. Richard Marceau

Mr. Georges Arès

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1635

Ms. Yolande Thibeault

Mr. Georges Arès

Ms. Yolande Thibeault

Mr. Georges Arès

Ms. Yolande Thibeault

Mr. Paul Forseth

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger)

Mr. Paul Forseth

º

1640

Mr. Georges Arès

Mr. Paul Forseth

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger)

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier

Mr. Georges Arès

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier

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1645

Mr. Georges Arès

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger)

Senator Viola Léger (New Brunswick, Lib.)

Ms. Diane Côté

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1650

Senator Viola Léger

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger)

Mr. Georges Arès

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger)

Mr. Georges Arès

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger)

Mr. Georges Arès

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger)

Ms. Diane Côté

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger)

Ms. Diane Côté

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger)

Ms. Diane Côté

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger)

Ms. Diane Côté

º

1655

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger)

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CANADA

Standing Joint Committee on Official Languages

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NUMBER 037

l

1st SESSION

l

37th PARLIAMENT

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EVIDENCE

Monday, May 6, 2002

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

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[Translation]

    The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger (Ottawa--Vanier, Lib.)): Ladies and gentlemen, we are about to get underway. Today, we are continuing our study of Part VII of the Official Languages Act as it affects the Department of Immigration.

    Last week, we talked to the minister. Today, we are meeting with the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada. Tomorrow, we will be hearing from further witnesses on this issue. And that should wrap up our hearings relating to the Department of Citizenship and Immigration and the study of Part VII of the Official Languages Act.

    Last week, we also heard from the Justice Minister. Our meeting with him wrapped up our hearing relating to that particular department, at least for the time being. Consequently, we will perhaps be in a position to think about preparing a brief report on our findings and recommendations in terms of these two particular departments and our study on Part VII of the Official Languages Act as it relates to these departments. We will come back to that topic after today's meeting however. Today's meeting is scheduled to last approximately an hour. Following that, we will go into an in camera session to discuss future business.

    We shall begin with Mr. Arès, who is the President of the Fédération. Welcome, Mr. Arès. You have the floor.

    Mr. Georges Arès (President, Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada): Thank you, Mr. Chair.

    Before I begin my formal presentation, I would like to introduce those people with me today. They are Mr. Richard Barrette, who is Director General of the Fédération, and Ms. Diane Côté, who looks after immigration issues for the Fédération.

    I would like to thank the members of the committee for inviting us here to discuss an issue that is relatively new for us but nonetheless crucial to the future of our francophone and Acadian communities.

    Raising the subject of immigration as part of a study of Part VII is, in our view, highly appropriate at this time. Meeting the challenge of increasing the number of immigrants who choose to settle in our communities requires concerted and sustained efforts not only in promotion, recruitment and selection but also in reception and integration. The participation of various departments and agencies, close cooperation with the provinces and territories, and the active involvement of francophone minority communities will be essential to the success of our work in this area. This approach will require a paradigm shift both by our communities and by the Canadian government. We have identified immigration as one of the vital components of development in the comprehensive development policy proposal we plan to submit officially to Minister Dion in a few days. On this issue, as in others, we can no longer afford to remain in reactive mode. We are already too far behind.

    Today, I would like to present a brief overview of the current situation and inform you of the approach we are considering taking to ensure that the francophone and Acadian communities reap more of the cultural, demographic and economic benefits of immigration.

    Over the last 30 years, Canada's demographic profile has changed substantially, owing to the arrival of thousands of immigrants and refugees. Statistics clearly show that without immigration, the birth rate would be too low to sustain population growth in Canada. For francophone and Acadian minority communities, the issue is paramount. With the decline in the relative size in the francophone population throughout Canada, the communities' ability to receive and integrate French-speaking immigrants is becoming vital.

    Canada relies on immigration to increase its population and meets its requirements for labour, technical and professional expertise. It also benefits from the rich cultural diversity that newcomers bring with them. Up to now, immigrants have tended to join the ranks of the majority, and the francophone and Acadian communities have benefited very little from the advantages of immigration.

    In the Canadian population as a whole, nearly 20% of all residents were born in other countries, while in francophone and Acadian communities, the figure is not even 5%. According to the 1996 census, 970,207 people whose mother tongue was French were living outside Quebec. Those francophones made up 4.5 per cent of the total population. By contrast, francophone immigrants outside Quebec accounted for only 1% of all immigrants who settled in the rest of Canada.

    Between 1996 and 1999, 6,408 francophone immigrants and 13,611 immigrants who reported knowing both official languages settled in provinces other than Quebec.

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     We hope that these numbers will increase in the future and that francophone newcomers will be able to help francophone minority communities grow and prosper.

    We recognize that immigration has a major impact not only on economic, cultural and social life as a whole, but also on demography and the role that Canada plays in the world. The francophone and Acadian communities must be able to benefit as the majority does from the prosperity and energy that immigration brings. They must use immigration to extend and revitalize francophone areas in Canada.

    In all respects, opening up the communities to newcomers and members of ethnocultural communities which share the use of the French language has advantages that go well beyond population's statistics. Among the significant benefits are opportunities to recruit expertise in skilled labour in fields that are crucial to the development of our communities; secure greater recognition for our communities on the international francophone stage, and discover new ways of doing things while respecting differences and greater cultural diversity.

    Over the next two years, an action plan to promote the francophone and Acadian communities in other countries and improve the recruitment, selection, reception and integration of francophone immigrants into our communities, will be developed in a cooperative effort by the francophone and Acadian communities, francophone ethnocultural groups and the Department of Citizenship and Immigration.

    The Citizenship and Immigration Canada steering committee for francophone minority communities, formed recently at our request, will be responsible for this exercise. At its first meeting, the committee identified three areas of intervention that need to be addressed: awareness; reception and integration; and promotion, recruitment and selection.

    On the issue of awareness, before initiating any action, Canada's francophone population must fully grasp the issues involved in francophone immigration. If the communities do not assume responsibility for taking action in this area, no one will do it for them.

    Traditionally of course, our communities have not attached much importance to immigration.

     Our efforts have been focused more on matters of collective survival and on how to strengthen our institutions, such as the right to school governance and the recognition of our fundamental linguistic rights.

    However, following the passing of the Multiculturalism Act in 1988, and in the wake of the Meech Lake and Charlottetown constitutional negotiations, the FCFA du Canada in 1991 published a study entitled Facing pluralism, by Stacy Churchill and Isabel Kaprielian-Churchill, one of whose aims was to explore the issue of cultural diversity and the reception of new immigrants in our francophone and Acadian communities and institutions.

    In addition, betwwen 1999 and 2001, we conducted an important study of the future francophone and Acadian communities, and a process we referred to as “Dialogue”. This pan-Canadian approach was designed to extend francophone space by modernizing the discourse and actions of the FCFA and reassessing the francophone and Acadian communities' position in relation to the other components of Canadian society.

    Needless to say, a large portion of Dialogue was devoted to the issue of immigration. In the section of its report entitled Parlons-nous that concerns relations with ethno-cultural communities, the Dialogue working group made a number of recommendations to the FCFA and its member associations.

    It also had a recommendation for the Canadian government:

The Government of Canada should review its official languages and multiculturalism policies and programs with a view to making them more compatible and more complementary, and the FCFA should be one of the stakeholders involved in the review.

    Indeed, the Canadian Heritage officials responsible for the official languages and multiculturalism programs, even though both programs are administered by the same department and come under the same assistant deputy minister, still lack a coordinated approach to meeting the specific needs of established francophone and ethno-cultural communities.

    In partnership with all stakeholders, we would also like to see the development of a diversity awareness program tailored to the realities of the francophone and Acadian communities. The partnership will be vital to the development of open, receptive communities, which is what we want to become. Some major education and awareness work therefore needs to be done in our communities.

    When people immigrating to Canada choose to live in a city or town that has a francophone community, they need to feel that the door is open, and that people who speak the same language are ready to welcome them into their community, their institutions and the organizations that represent them: in short, that the francophone community is also their community. We nevertheless need to be able to rely on the Department of Canadian Heritage to support us both in our role of protecting and promoting our linguistic rights and in our role as an open, receptive society.

    With respect to reception and integration capacity, the second area of activity involves documenting the reception capacity of each francophone and Acadian community, and working to improve it. This means, first and foremost, admitting from the outset that the reception capacity of the francophone and Acadian communities in Canada is not uniform. By reception capacity, we mean the presence of conditions conducive to the integration—not assimilation—of immigrants into the community. The idea is to create a social, economic and cultural climate that will help immigrants thrive and encourage contributions from each culture.

    New Brunswick and Ontario have a large enough critical mass of francophones, so that contact with the francophone business community can be encouraged, and so that political, economic and community authorities can be lobbied to support integration and settlement assistance for francophone immigrants. Such cities as Vancouver, Edmonton, Calgary and Winnipeg may attract francophone immigrants.

    To implement the second set of measures, the francophone and Acadian communities need the support of Citizenship and Immigration Canada, Human Resources Development Canada, Industry Canada and other economic and regional development departments and agencies.

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In Manitoba and British Columbia, the provincial government is responsible for receiving and integrating new immigrants. Accordingly, we will need to raise awareness in the provinces and secure their cooperation in this effort.

    We are currently carrying out projects whose initial aim is to assess the reception capacity of the francophone and Acadian communities of Moncton, Ottawa, Sudbury, Winnipeg, Edmonton and Vancouver. This project will provide input into an action plan by identifying existing needs and services and by suggesting possible solutions so that the communities can acquire the resources to meet new immigrants' needs.

    It must be possible to inform immigrants whose mother tongue is French or who speak French of the existence of the francophone minority community in the society where they have decided to settle. They must also have access in those communities to the services they need to help them get settled in Canada.

    Promotion, recruitment and selection measures are designed to promote our communities abroad, as well as to recruit and select immigrants who wish to settle in Canada. The Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade, and Citizenship and Immigration Canada, in partnership with the communities, have a prominent role to play. Awareness will have to be raised in some provinces as well.

    Several provinces have concluded agreements with the federal government allowing them to recruit and select immigrants for their region, and other provinces are negotiating similar agreements.

    Canadian embassies and consulates abroad must be capable of informing potential immigrants about the francophone and Acadian communities. The required promotional materials have to be produced and distributed widely. The accessibility of Canada's embassies and consulates in la Francophonie member countries has to be reassessed. In addition, the point system used to select immigrants needs to take the unique character of the francophone and Acadian communities into account.

    Recently, the Commissioner of Official Languages told you that immigration cannot be based exclusively on economic criteria, and that it must also reflect the country's linguistic and social fabric. She also informed you of the recommendations she made to the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration, which is currently studying the new regulations for the recently passed Immigration and Refugee Protection Act.

    She suggested that the proposed points structure be altered to recognize the true value of the language skills of bilingual immigrants. Moreover, following the Standing Committee's proposal to award points for adaptability to immigrants who settle in regions of low immigration, she recommended:

—including in the regulations the possibility of designating an official language community as a low-immigration region so that immigrants whose first official language is the minority language can earn points for adaptability, even when the region concerned is not defined as a region of low immigration.

    We strongly support the commissioner's proposals. Her statements clearly illustrate what we mean when we say that we want to be able to take action early in the process rather than at the end. It is true that the Citizenship and Immigration Canada-Francophone Minority Communities Steering Committee was formed only recently. Nevertheless, in view of the commitment in the new Immigration and Refugee Protection Act to support and assist the development of official languages communities, our communities should have been consulted when the broad outlines of the new regulations were being worked out.

    In conclusion, I would like to reiterate that, to be complete, the development of our communities must take place on a number of levels at the same time. That is why the strengthening of Part VII of the Official Languages Act within a comprehensive federal development policy for our communities is so important to us.

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    Immigration has become essential to our development. We do not have to wait for the new 2001 census statistics, which will be made public in December, to know that. In our opinion, those statistics will merely highlight the urgency of taking action.

    It is worth repeating, however, that the progress of francophone and Acadian communities with respect to immigration will require political will, cooperation and the support of the government of Canada as a whole. It is an important opportunity for the government to act on its commitment to support the development of francophone minorities in Canada and promote full recognition and the use of French in Canadian society.

    Thank you for your attention, and I will be pleased to answer your questions.

    The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Thank you, Mr. Arès.

[English]

    Mr. Forseth, you're first with seven minutes, and then we'll move down this way.

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    Mr. Paul Forseth (New Westminster--Coquitlam--Burnaby, Canadian Alliance): Thank you very much for coming today.

    I see near the end of your presentation you talk about consultation and you decry the lack of consultation. I was the lead opposition critic on the citizenship and immigration committee when the regulations came down. We challenged the department about its claim of widely consulting.

    It's interesting today that you have supported our view, rather than the department's view, that when we disputed their claims of how widely they consulted.... When they brought down their regulations it seemed to be unanimous across the country that the department got it wrong and the department got it wrong very badly, and there was quite a negative response across the country.

    In view of that, the committee then called evidence on the matter and then outlined some recommendations to the minister and the department to say, here's an alternate view.

    Now, I'll ask you a little bit later about the committee's new numbering system regarding language, but can you just comment a bit about your claim that really the department, in bringing down the regulations, failed to properly consult with you and therefore that might be some of the reason why, in the regulations themselves, they got it so wrong?

    Mr. Georges Arès: I don't think I can comment on whether they got it so wrong or not. I'm not an expert on what was done but I think we would have preferred to have been consulted more. I'm not sure what their “wide consultation” entailed; they can certainly fill you in on that. But as to our specific concern, we felt we should have been better consulted on that before they went ahead with their proposals.

    So yes, we say it in our brief. We felt we should have been better consulted. I think, though, that we are being better consulted now. I think the department has taken our criticism to heart and they have put in place a joint committee, which will ensure a great consultation of our communities and our needs. So I think the department has heard what we said, our criticism that we should have been consulted better before, and I think we feel now, at the moment, that we are being well consulted by Immigration Canada.

    The joint committee that has been put in place is what we asked for. They listened and they responded. Yes, we should have been better consulted, and yes, we are being better consulted at the moment.

    Mr. Paul Forseth: I hope from that consultation you'll see that it will actually affect the outcome of where things are going.

    In one of your paragraphs here, on page 5 in the English version, it says, “She [the commissioner] suggested that the proposed point structure be altered to recognize the true value of the language skills of bilingual immigrants”. That was one of the major pushes of my work on the citizenship and immigration committee, to take the regulations as proposed by the department and say that they did not sufficiently recognize those who perhaps had a bilingual capacity and not necessarily an academic capacity in both languages, but to rearrange the number score so that it would be more inclusive of those of French language capacity.

     Have you had a chance to look at the point system related to language that the citizenship and immigration committee had proposed as a preferable regulation to what was originally published in the Gazette for comment?

    Mr. Georges Arès: No, we don't have the specific details on that. But we agree with the commissioner, and if that's your position as well that there should be more points allowed for bilingual skills of both official languages, then we agree with that. If your position is that both official languages should be better recognized in the point system and people who know both official languages should receive more points, as far as we are concerned, yes.

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    Mr. Paul Forseth: I would commend to you to go to the committee site on the Internet and look at citizenship and immigration committee reports--the last report is called Building a Nation--and look at our proposed grid for points for language as compared to what the department had offered.

    I understand that under the department system you would nominate which would be your primary language and you could get 16 points for that. You'd have to have a very high proficiency in that language to get points. A moderate, street-working language to be able to get along in the community was awarded zero. In view of that, in submissions that the committee heard, we rejigged that whole process and expanded it. We also referred to another part of your recommendation about those who had an intent to settle not in the major centres but in a smaller part of Canada, perhaps rural Quebec or wherever. They could get some extra points for that, albeit recognizing the charter. Once someone is here, basically they can fulfil their own destiny.

    I would suggest that you look at those recommendations of the committee and then, in view of that, use your influence to have the minister agree with the committee, because we're at a decision-making point right now. The minister has to decide whether he is going to accept what the academics in the department had recommended, which nationally Canadians said they had got wrong. Or is the minister going to side with the committee, where we heard evidence and we made very significant improvements? I think those improvements would greatly help francophone minorities across the country. Your influence in coming forward, after doing analysis of that report, might help add weight to where the committee wanted to go.

    I would hope that you would be able to do that analysis and add your weight, as part of the consultation or whatever, to go the committee's way rather than the department's way.

    Mr Georges Arès: Mr. Forseth, I accept the suggestion. We'll certainly look at the committee's recommendations to see how we can support them with Minister Coderre. Certainly, what we are looking for is to have better regulations in place that would encourage immigrants to our communities, whether they are in urban or rural centres. A lot of our communities are based in rural centres or villages, so we have to take that into account as well. But we'll certainly study the committee's recommendations and proceed from there.

[Translation]

    The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Ms. Thibeault.

    Ms. Yolande Thibeault (Saint-Lambert, Lib.): Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.

    A thought came to me as I was reading your presentation, and my intervention is really a comment. In 1999, my association wrote up a resolution for the Liberal Party convention in Hull, which was not very well received to begin with. It was a bit off-the-wall. People had not really thought out how it could all be put together. Our resolution was about immigration, and more specifically about investor immigrants.

    Our suggestion, which was eventually adopted at the Hull convention, was that potential investor immigrants who had $250,000 or $300,000, instead of $500,000, and whose skills would be useful to the community or in demand in remote regions, could be accepted as immigrants by the government on the condition that they settle in remote areas.

    It seems to me that, even though the idea was never accepted by the government, this kind of proposal could be of interest to small francophone communities outside Quebec. Careful thought would have to be given to it, however, because there are a lot of problems involved.

    Mr. Georges Arès: That could be helpful. The fact that populations in rural communities are declining because people are moving to urban areas is a widespread problem in Canadian society. So it is a problem for our communities as well. I do not know whether such an approach could apply specifically to francophone and Acadian communities. Maybe it would have to apply to all areas. Anything that could help increase the population in our francophone communities should be looked at. It would have to be determined whether there were advantages to telling people who would be able to invest $200,000, $250,000 or $300,000 that they should settle in a given area. The idea would have to be examined carefully before it was endorsed and chosen as an approach that should be implemented.

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    Ms. Yolande Thibeault: It would not be a matter of telling them that they would have to go to those places, but it would apply to those who would not be eligible to come here because they do not have the $500,000 needed, but rather $300,000.

    Mr. Georges Arès: That is right. I understand.

    Ms. Yolande Thibeault: In any case, I wanted to put the idea out there so that you could think about it. It came to me while I was listening to your presentation.

    Mr. Georges Arès: We will certainly think about it.

    The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Is that it?

    Ms. Yolande Thibeault: Yes, that is it.

    The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Thank you.

    Mr. Marceau.

    Mr. Richard Marceau (Charlesbourg—Jacques-Cartier, BQ): Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

    To begin, Mr. Arès, thank you for your presentation. I would just like to step back a bit and look at the problem from a broader perspective.

    In conclusion, you mentioned the importance of Part VII of the Official Languages Act for francophone communities across Canada. You know, of course, that when Justice Minister Martin Cauchon came before the committee last week, he expressed his opinion that Part VII was declaratory. From what I understand of your position, you feel that Part VII is mandatory, binding. I would like to hear your comments on what the Justice Minister said and the possible problems that such a position could pose for francophone and Acadian communities.

    Mr. Georges Arès: What Mr. Cauchon said is nothing revolutionary in terms of the Department of Justice. In 1988, the Department of Justice took the position that Part VII is merely declaratory in nature.

    What we would like to see happen is a change in the attitude of departments, agencies and institutions. No matter whether Part VII is declaratory, justiciable or binding, as the case may be, the development of our communities requires cooperation from other departments. In order to achieve this, we have to recognize that there is a difference of opinion here. We have to recognize that we believe that Part VII is binding while the Department of Justice asserts that it is merely declaratory. We have to try to develop a positive position which will enable us to move forward on this issue.

    I wanted to point out that Citizenship and Immigration has already developed a positive approach to this topic. We are doing some meaningful work with them. This department has developed an approach, whereby a joint committee will be set up to study our needs and ways of addressing them. They are studying ways of assisting us and attracting immigrants to our communities. This is the type of approach that we want to see.

    We find it worrying that Mr. Cauchon has stopped at stating that Part VII is merely declaratory without proposing any further action on this issue. If Mr. Cauchon wants to say that Part VII is merely declaratory, that's fine, but what we want is for him to state that he intends to find ways of moving forward on this issue to promote the development and vitality of our communities. We have always said that Part VII is binding. Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier's Bill S-32 aims to have Part VII deemed binding. What we really need is a change in attitude here. That's what is missing.

    Mr. Richard Marceau: I see exactly where you're coming from on this issue. You're saying that you are currently not seeing a positive attitude from the federal government. The very fact that you are calling for a change in attitude speaks to the fact that the federal government's approach is not the one you want. Am I right in that?

    Mr. Georges Arès: Well, it does exist in some departments. For example, at Citizenship and Immigration, at Health Canada and Human Resources. We are gradually getting there.

    However, what we are calling for is for the federal government to adopt a comprehensive development policy for all departments, agencies and institutions. If the federal government were to do that, that would demonstrate their resolve.

    The current problem that we are facing is that the implementation of the right approach, in those departments where it has been done, really boils down to the particular person in the job at a particular time. These people move from job to job, and that means that attitudes change. I'm not saying however that this is always the case, but it is a possibility. What we're advocating, is a comprehensive development policy which would extend the positive approach of specific departments to other departments, agencies and institutions. In so doing, we would no longer have to rely on officials to recognize our needs and to come up with ways of addressing these needs in particular departments, agencies or institutions.

    As a rule of thumb, I believe that the federal government has a long way to go, but we should not conclude that the right approach that I am advocating does not exist already. This approach exists in specific departments, and we work very well with those particular departments. The fact that this positive approach does exist despite the ongoing debate on the declaratory or binding status of section 41, Part VII indicates that we can bring about change.

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    Mr. Richard Marceau: This positive attitude that seems to depend all too often, if I understand what you are saying correctly, on the good will of a person who might well be replaced is something you would like to find or see developed in a comprehensive policy. That would, I assume, be the responsibility of the minister responsible for francophone communities, Mr. Stéphane Dion. Have you spoken with Mr. Dion? Is he open to the idea? I do not want to make you take a political stand, but it seems to me that we have been waiting for a year and we still have not seen the comprehensive federal policy Mr. Dion promised. Has he consulted you? Has he said to you: “Mr. Arès, this type of attitude or philosophy that you want to have applied throughout the federal government is a good idea. We are going to integrate it into our general plan?” Have you sensed any openness on his part?

    Mr. Georges Arès: I must say, Mr. Marceau, that yes, we do sense that in Mr. Dion. In fact, we asked Mr. Dion to delay presenting an action plan in order to consult with our communities and to consult us so that we could share our views with him on the content of the comprehensive development policy, which Mr. Dion calls an action framework or an action plan. We had an opportunity to submit documents to the people involved. We are also participating in discussions with his officials. Mr. Dion agreed to very broad consultations with our communities, and I believe that these consultations in our communities will end this month. As for us, we did not want to see him quickly introduce an action plan. He accepted that. He asked to receive the relevant documentation and to hear our ideas on the content of this action plan. We sense his willingness to listen and to consult. It remains to be seen what will be contained in the policy or the action plan that he will be presenting in the next few weeks, but he wants to meet with us between now and the start of June so that we can pursue the discussions. So we are hopeful that the action framework that will be presented will contain aspects that will be an initial response to our needs.

    Mr. Richard Marceau: This is my last question because I think that unfortunately, time is flying by. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    You would like to see francophone immigrants settle outside Quebec and integrate francophone communities outside Quebec; for lack of a better term, would the francophone communities outside Quebec and Quebec compete for the number of francophone immigrants? I sense some concern there. Do you consider it competition? If yes, is it healthy competition or is it more a way of bringing additional francophone immigrants into Canada?

    Mr. Georges Arès: I remember what Minister Beaudoin said when she learned that we were getting involved in this immigration initiative: she wished us good luck. So I do not think there will be very much competition. I think that there are francophone immigrants who come to Canada and who do not know anything about our communities. They are already here. So we have to work on them. We also have to do some work abroad to encourage other people to come and establish themselves in our communities. I think there are enough potential francophone immigrants so that we will not have to squabble with Quebec over that. Ms. Beaudoin wished us good luck. We will work with the Quebec government on this matter, if it so desires. We can hold discussions with its representatives, but we are not looking to quibble with the Quebec government. We would rather see Quebec help us strengthen our communities. And Mr. Charbonneau, the Quebec Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, specifically indicated that he was prepared to work on that. I think that is the approach we want to use with the Quebec government.

    The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Thank you. I want to point out to you, Mr. Marceau, that this committee also participated in the consultations. When we adopted Mr. Sauvageau's motion, we spent two days meeting with 13 or 17 groups and we have tabled, I believe, our ninth report to the House on this topic. So, we, too, participated in this process.

    Senator Gauthier.

    Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier (Ontario, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    Last year, Canada accepted 250,386 immigrants and refugees. Forty-eight per cent of them spoke only English. A mere 5% spoke French. The others were what we call allophones, in other words, people who speak another language. About 2,000 of these francophone immigrants went to live in communities outside Quebec. To describe this reality, Ms. Adam uses the expression “demographic renewal”, an expression that I like very much, even though I would use the words “assimilation” and “solutions” instead.

    She is relying to a large extent on immigration to offset our birth rate, which is very low, and our language transfers, which are worrisome, you will admit. In 1991, the assimilation rate was 35%, and in 1996, it was 37%. The situation is not improving. We are losing our numbers and must replace them.

    There are times when I am not very hopeful, but I think we always have to try and tell it like it is. I'm under the impression that Mr. Coderre, who was here last week, is a bit more hopeful than I am. In response to a question I asked him, and agreeing with me to some extent, he said, and I quote:

By 2011, 100% of the workforce will rely on immigration, and in 2026, 100% of the growth in population will depend on immigration.

    In other words, immigration will almost no longer suffice to replace deaths and transfers.

    Mr. Marceau mentioned something earlier, and you answered him well. I think that your presentation today is serious and well thought out.

    We are asking for a comprehensive development policy for communities, and this is not new. I can tell you all about it. In this room, in 1973, the Federation was founded. Mr. Trudeau was in the room. At that time, the Federation was talking about a comprehensive development policy. We have been talking about it for a long time, for 27 or 28 years. Maybe I am a bit impatient, but I think that there was an opening and that Mr. Coderre gave signs that he understood. His remarks were positive. He said that if we, here in Canada, cannot understand that French- and English-speaking Canadians throughout the country are important for the survival of our country, if we think that the presence of francophones in Alberta is not important, if francophone communities are being hard hit in the rest of Canada, with the exception of Quebec, we have serious problems.

    Mr. Coderre talked about a partnership with the communities. It's all well and good to say that we're going to establish partnerships, but I wonder if the communities are ready for that and if they have been consulted.

    He told us about two pilot projects. I asked him where they had been conducted and if he was used to that type of process. So tell us a little bit about Mr. Coderre's partnership and spirit of openness.

º  (1610)  

    Ms. Diane Côté (Liaison Officer, Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada): If I may, Senator, I would like to clarify that there is a pilot project that was mentioned in the text. It is a project to assess the accommodation capacity in the communities of Vancouver, Edmonton, Winnipeg, Sudbury, Ottawa and Moncton. It is a six-month project and we should have a report by mid-September.

    The other pilot project involves the creation of the Citizenship and Immigration Canada—Francophone Minority Communities Steering Committee which is made up of directors from each of the sectors at Citizenship and Immigration, representatives from francophone communities, but also ethno-cultural francophone communities. There are also some departmental partners as observers; others should be added on later. For the time being, these are the two pilot projects we are involved in. The objective of the steering committee is to develop a strategic action plan over the next two years in the area of immigration.

    Mr. Georges Arès: I would like to talk about Mr. Coderre's commitment. I think that Mr. Coderre is displaying the leadership that we need on the part of ministers, and people responsible for federal government agencies and institutions. This leadership has been lacking for a long time in some federal government departments. This leadership was not consistent in the past, and I think that Ms. Adam alluded to it in her first report. It is the kind of leadership that we would like to see on the part of the ministers of all of the federal government departments. We would like them to recognize that they have a responsibility towards linguistic duality in this country. This is a fundamental aspect. We would like to see ministers take the same stand as Mr. Coderre in the action they take with the Canadian people and their officials. I sensed that during the meeting I had with Mr. Coderre. He has a real desire to show this leadership, and I think that is why we get along so well and that we work so well with Citizenship and Immigration. This is the kind of leadership that we must see throughout the federal government.

º  (1615)  

    Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: Mr. Arès, I understand what you are saying, but when the successive ministers of justice repeat to all deputy ministers and all other ministers that section 41 of the act is declaratory in nature, what can we do? There is no incentive, when that happens. There is one, currently. Mr. Coderre came here, and I had the impression that he told us it would be binding in his department, that he was going to see to it.

    I can quote some excerpts from his opening remarks. He said: “We will ensure that each regional committee...” It bothered me a bit when he talked about regionalism. He said that he favoured a regional approach to the immigration policy. He said it was going to be based on the Quebec experience, which has been good and productive.

    I am not sure that there is the same willingness in the other provinces with respect to francophone communities in Canada. I would like to be sure that the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne is present to raise awareness among these people in charge of, seemingly, regionalizing Canadian immigration so that in each region, there are people speaking out on behalf of the communities.

    Are you involved in that?

    Mr. Georges Arès: I think that enforcement will come from the joint committee. I think that we see that in other agencies. If the minister in charge shows the necessary leadership, the employees, even in the regions, adopt that attitude quickly. We saw that with Western Economic Diversification Canada when Minister Duhamel was put in charge. The attitude changed quickly, because Minister Duhamel demonstrated the necessary leadership for people to change their attitudes.

    I am convinced that with Mr. Coderre's attitude, the attitude of people at Immigration Canada in the regions will be positive and that we will work well with them, and that the members of our federation who are in the regions will work well with them.

    The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Mr. Gauthier, we can come back to this during the second round.

    Mr. Forseth, you have five minutes.

[English]

    Mr. Paul Forseth: Thank you very much.

    On page 5 of the English part of the presentation it says:

Canadian embassies and consulates abroad must be capable of informing potential immigrants about the francophone and Acadian communities. The required promotional materials have to be produced and distributed widely.

    Well, it's interesting. I just came back from our embassy in Vienna. I was looking at our immigration processes there. Although I didn't have time, I was told there were some officials there from Quebec as well who were particularly looking at or trolling, you might say, for the francophonie, because of course the Vienna embassy is a regional one that goes beyond just Austria.

    What we discovered in a number of the embassies was the lack of capacity for our officials, even for English language skilled workers, to be able to actually get out of the embassy and promote, to go to job fairs or produce attractive literature and develop a network within the community. It seems our embassies worldwide are just hunkered down trying to cope with the number of applications they have, and they're just trying to manage and survive.

    Instead of having a passive approach and saying you recognize the need... I think our people in the embassies also recognize the same kind of need for you folks as communities to work directly with some of those Quebec agents who are abroad to perhaps self-produce literature and material, and to find business people who, on occasion, will make trips as a non-governmental organization, in the summertime or whatever, to support those officers out there and to do the kind of promotion that a government employee just doesn't have time to do. That's an idea for you to explore. Instead of just saying government has to do this, you get the private sector and communities involved to actually travel to some of these points and work with our officials who are there. You can comment on that.

    I also wanted you to comment on the last part of the paragraph, which says:

In addition, the point system used to select immigrants needs to take the unique character of the francophone and Acadian communities into account.

    You've obviously thought about this and you've concluded that the present arrangement really isn't working. What changes, beyond having these French specialists, so to speak, in our embassies abroad, would you see need to be made? You're saying this needs to be reassessed; the point system isn't particularly working. Maybe you can comment about that as well. I'm requesting kind of a two-part answer from that one paragraph.

º  (1620)  

    Mr. Georges Arès: In answer to your first comment, certainly we can take that into account. What we would like to do is sit down with External Affairs, with Immigration Canada, with the people who deal with the embassies and consulates abroad, to see how we can cooperate. We want to explore that. We don't want to just sit back and say you have to do this. We want to see how it can be done and how we can participate in doing that.

    We are willing to get people from our communities, whether they are business people or volunteers, to do some of that work. But we have to sit down with these government departments and embassies to see how it can be done. How can we do it? We're willing to do it.

    Secondly, we don't say that the present arrangement on the point system is not working. What we are suggesting is that we have something new. We want the needs of our communities to be taken into account by Immigration Canada. Therefore, the point system should be revised to take that into account. That's what we want to be done.

    I think Immigration Canada has indicated a desire to work with our communities, and we're saying we should also look at the point system to see how revising it can take this new factor into account. How do we encourage immigration to francophone and Acadian communities in this country? We're willing to sit down with them and look at that. We're not saying that the point system right now totally doesn't work; we're saying let's take this new factor into account.

[Translation]

    The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Senator Gauthier, you have five minutes.

    Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: Mr. Arès made some reference to employment, noting that there may be a certain amount of competition as far as francophones are concerned between Quebec and the rest of Canada, when it comes to jobs.

    I do not have extensive experience in this area but I gather that in your native province of Alberta, there were a lot of francophone immigrants at one point, in connection with the development of hydrocarbon resources. These resources were developed. A similar phenomenon took place in British Columbia as well. I don't know if you remember Mallardville where there was significant immigration.

    What I'd like to talk about is training. It is important for immigrants coming to Canada to be received by the different communities, but it also takes a good educational system. We now have school governance throughout Canada. We have dynamic communities in certain areas. There are other places where things leave something to be desired. Certain measures have been taken because of the lack of institutions over a period of years.

    Are you satisfied with the reception as well as the language training provided to new immigrants at the present time? I am thinking in particular of the CLIC in Toronto. Are you familiar with the CLIC? It provides language courses for immigrants. Is there a similar system throughout the country?

º  (1625)  

    Mr. Georges Arès: No, and we are not satisfied with the present reception. That is why we suggested that serious consideration be given to the matter with Citizenship and Immigration. Our task force “Dialogue” suggested that the communities themselves should also take a look at how they could become more welcoming towards immigrants through their institutions. That also includes the French schools. I think we recognize that it is important for the children of immigrants to have access to the community institutions, schools, etc. In my view, it is important for our communities to give some thought to this matter, for them to open up to immigrants and realize the need to integrate them into their institutions.

    Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: One of the provinces, New Brunswick, offers language courses through the CLIC. Some are also offered in Ottawa, but as far as I know, this is not the case elsewhere. So maybe we should think about taking a more generous approach in providing this kind of structure.

    How can you expect to encourage an immigrant to settle in Alberta with children when the parents do not have a good knowledge of the second language or the two official languages of the country? There is no access to language training. It is very difficult.

    In Quebec the situation is not the same. It attracts the vast majority of francophone immigrants. Ninety-nine per cent of them want to settle in Quebec, we get the one per cent remaining. Do you have any ideas about how to convince the provinces?

    Let me conclude by asking you another question. The minister announced that there would be a federal-provincial conference in November. Were you invited to take part? Will the reception system be discussed? Will they be talking about language training? Will they be talking about the actual problems faced by the community?

    Mr. Georges Arès: Minister Coderre indicated that he wanted to have this subject on the agenda, for the federal-provincial conference on immigration, so I hope there will be a discussion. I don't think that we will be involved in such a conference. We could be there as observers and work behind the scenes, but as far as language training is concerned, it is essential to provide adequate training for immigrants who do not know one of the official languages.

    Just as important, Senator, when francophone immigrants arrive in the province, it is necessary to inform them about the existence of the francophone communities. It is the first step because there are French-speaking immigrants who come to Alberta or elsewhere who are not at all informed about the existence of a francophone community where they are. That is the first thing.

    Then of course, there is the need for language training, but there are all sorts of measures that must be taken together to provide them with an appropriate welcome and help integrate them into our communities. It is not just one or two things, it is a whole series of measures that have to be implemented.

    Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: I believe that there is a Canada-wide consultation taking place on the selection grid for immigrants. Are you aware of this? The minister referred to it in this committee. I'd be interested to know whether you are satisfied with the proposed grid or whether you have any particular proposals to make so that we might include them in our report.

    Mr. Georges Arès: I believe so. We certainly do have recommendations to make but personally, I would have to see this grid first since I have not yet seen it. In our brief, there are some indications of what we would like this to include. I think there is good reason to hope that we will be able to work with the Department of Citizenship and Immigration on this.

º  (1630)  

    Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: I'll send you a copy. It's in the Canada Gazette. I'd like to have an opinion from the federation.

    Mr. Georges Arès: Yes, we'll certainly give you one, Senator.

    Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: I'd like to know what you think about this grid.

    Mr. Georges Arès: Yes.

    Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: It's not something hypothetical, it is a reality.

    The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Have you finished your answer?

    Mr. Georges Arès: Once we receive this grid, we will send you our comments, Senator.

    The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): If you would like to share this information and send a copy to the committee clerk, we will see that it is circulated, Mr. Arès.

    Mr. Georges Arès: Yes.

    The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Mr. Marceau.

    Mr. Richard Marceau: Mr. Arès, I assume that if an aggressive policy to attract francophone immigrants to settle outside Quebec were implemented, the federal government would not wish to undertake this all alone. It would have to work in cooperation with your organization, among others, as the main representative of the francophone and Acadian communities in Canada.

    I'd like know what elements you would use for your sales pitch. If you were a salesman, and you had to sell your communities outside Canada to encourage people to settle among you, what approach would you take?

    Mr. Georges Arès: I think that this is an approach to be developed. Attempts were made in the past to attract francophone immigrants to some of our communities and they were not particularly successful. I think it would be useful to find out why they were not very successful. As a matter of fact, the Société franco-manitobaine has done some research on this. Several years ago they attempted to attract immigrants without great success but now they're going about it in a different way. They are studying the factors that might cause them to settle and remain in the community.

    This is a very complex issue. There is the matter of jobs, the possibility of using one's language, and access to our community institutions. All these factors come into play. So studies will have to be done to determine how we can become a more welcoming society and keep these people. That is why pilot projects are very important. We don't have all the answers. If we had the answers, we wouldn't need assistance. We would simply go abroad and tell them they are welcome, and they would come here and stay. But becoming a society that accepts and integrates immigrants is a complex matter, it is not easy. Pilot projects will give us a good idea of how to go about looking for them and keeping them in our communities.

    Mr. Richard Marceau: I suppose that if you have made the strategic choice to explore this possibility further, that is, attempting to attract immigrants to your community, you've also given some thought to how you will do it. It is a tall order. You say you would like to see certain things happen because they make sense and they would help the community, etc.

    In your opinion, what instruments should the federal government put into place to ensure that immigrants are well integrated into your communities? We've been talking about figures. I'm sure you must have given this some thought. How much would be necessary to encourage this new immigration?

    Mr. Georges Arès: Mr. Marceau, the joint committee that we want to set up with Citizenship and Immigration will have to look at this action plan. The committee, with the expertise of the people representing our communities, representing the francophone ethnocultural communities which are already here, along with departmental officials, will be developing a plan. They are the people who can say which type of measures should work, may work, have already worked or may be set aside because they don't work.

    There are two pilot projects. There is the joint committee as well as pilot projects in six cities to determine how we can become a more welcoming society. There are already examples, there are immigrants who are part of our communities but they could be included in greater numbers. We already see people interested in taking part in our activities, in the life of our communities in French. So with the help of these people, we can come up with ways of attracting more of them and making them a part of our communities and our institutions.

    So there is a lot of work to do. That is why we called for the creation of a committee to study this issue and develop an action plan. We don't have all the answers right now. You are asking for answers. I don't have all of them but I do know, having lived in a minority francophone community all my life, that there are differences and that we do want to add some diversity to our communities. We are trying to find new practices so that their numbers can be increased. The purpose of this action committee is to develop an action plan to be used by our communities in their work with immigrants and to help keep them in our communities.

    The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Thank you, Mr. Arès and Mr. Marceau.

    Ms. Thibeault.

º  (1635)  

    Ms. Yolande Thibeault: Thank you.

    I'd be interested in knowing what happens to a French-speaking immigrant family living outside Quebec for the schooling of their children. Are the francophone school boards allowed to enrol these children or does it require provincial permission and so forth?

    Mr. Georges Arès: You are probably aware of the problem in Saskatchewan that will be dealt with by the courts. The Saskatchewan government, pursuant to its section 144, requires francophone school boards to obtain the permission of the anglophone school boards where these students live for any transfer to French-language schools. It is unfortunate that the Government of Saskatchewan has adopted such a position.

    I think that section 23 clearly stipulates that people from elsewhere whose mother tongue is French may attend French schools. I think that it requires some good will. To give you an example, I think that in Alberta the francophone school boards accept as pupils those who may not be entitled to attend their schools if French is their mother tongue and they wish to attend a French-language school. The Alberta government allows the school boards to decide themselves what they want to do.

    So the situation varies from province to province. It is unfortunate that Saskatchewan has adopted such a position. It will be brought before the courts but I think that there should be a recognition by the government that people who come from other countries and whose mother tongue is French should have access to French schools. Whether they be French from France, Belgium, Africa or Haiti, the fact is that these people speak French. They should have access. As I said, it depends on who happens to be in a position of authority. There are school boards that agree and are willing to take them in. In Saskatchewan, the francophone school boards would like to do so but the Saskatchewan government says no.

    Ms. Yolande Thibeault: So you are telling us that while the decision of the Supreme Court is pending, this issue must be settled individually by each province?

    Mr. Georges Arès: Absolutely. Education is a provincial mandate. Section 23 takes a few powers away from the provinces and, to a certain extent, gives some to the francophone communities; but if it had been very clear in stating that anyone, even from outside Canada, can access schools in their mother tongue, there would be no problems with the provinces: they would have to accept. Some of them show goodwill by allowing school boards to do this, but others are not showing any goodwill. And so they will find any excuse to say no.

    Ms. Yolande Thibeault: Thank you very much.

[English]

    Mr. Paul Forseth: Thank you very much.

    On page 3 of the English version, it says--

    The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): This is the final round.

    Mr. Paul Forseth: Okay.

    It says:

Traditionally, of course, our communities have not attached much importance to immigration. Our efforts have been focused more on matters of collective survival and how to strengthen our institutions, such as the right to school governance and the recognition of our fundamental linguistic rights.

    That's quite a paragraph. In fact, I think it's quite an admission. It's an outlook, I suppose, of being defensive. I can observe that France itself has been behaving somewhat the same way, internally, as a nation, and on the international stage. They've been doing those very same things. But it's all very general.

    On the same page there is a highlighted recommendation. The recommendation you make says:

The Government of Canada should review its official languages and multiculturalism policies and programs with a view to making them more compatible and more complementary.

    What are you really talking about when you say “compatible and more complementary”? It's so general. I would like some real, specific ideas. Now, you've talked about an outward look, a kind of target marketing approach, and then the problem of retention, which might have more to do with taxes and the entrepreneurial climate, where people are looking for their future. It may have nothing to do with French culture. But when you make a very clear recommendation that the government has to redo what it's doing to make policies more “compatible and complementary”, what are you really talking about there?

º  (1640)  

    Mr. Georges Arès: Well, we're talking about people getting together, working better together, living better together, and the policies of the Government of Canada should reflect that. I think our task force on dialogue indicated that people do want to get along, and they need to know about each other to get along. We see in the Government of Canada's policies that you have policies on official bilingualism programs that deal specifically with that, programs that deal with multiculturalism, and yet never the two shall meet in the same department--Canadian Heritage. There are problems putting the two together so that we can work together.

    I think that's what we're saying. We want to see more recognition that Canada has official languages, but it also has multicultural communities that need to get along together to work toward common objectives. I think our task force proposes a lot of things in that direction.

    Our communities...as we say, we have not attached much importance to immigration in the past. We've been concentrating on getting essential institutions for our survival, like schools, management and control of schools. I think now we have turned toward other areas that are almost as crucial for our survival, and immigration is one of them.

    I think we make that admission because our communities felt for the longest time that education, the right to the schools, the right to their management and control, was the key element necessary to ensure survival of our communities. That took a long time to get. Even after section 23 was adopted in 1981 and became law in 1982, it took a Supreme Court of Canada decision to say, “Yes, you have the right to the management and control of the schools”. And that came into effect only in the nineties--fewer than ten years ago, in some instances.

    So we are turning our attention to other areas and we're saying we have to get along with multicultural groups that form part of this country as well. We want to do that, and we want the Government of Canada to review its policies so they will help us do that.

    Mr. Paul Forseth: Okay. Thank you.

[Translation]

    The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Senator Gauthier.

    Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: Immigration is a mandate shared between the federal and provincial levels. On the other hand, provinces have control over education, health and industrial or commercial relations within their jurisdiction. Is your federation sufficiently well-established in each province to influence them with regard to education, for instance? This is a fairly simple question.

    Do you currently have any kind of basis or roots in each Canadian province whereby you could influence and perhaps promote francophone immigration in each province? This is my first question.

    Mr. Georges Arès: In every province and territory, we have members working on these files. Currently, in each province, there are also ministers or deputy ministers in charge of francophone affairs, secretariats for francophone affairs that are working to raise the awareness of the departments in the provincial and territorial governments. We see that the provincial and territorial governments are becoming more and more open to our communities.

    I think that the ministers in charge of francophone affairs recently sent a letter stating that they supported developing health care in French for francophone and Acadian communities. This is an example of this kind of openness and the kind of work that those in charge of francophone affairs are doing. I think that this could also extend to immigration files and other files.

    I think we can be optimistic. I would not go so far as to say that all the provinces would be ready to make a commitment to this. With regard to health, for instance, three or four provinces might be ready to review the French health care file. In my opinion, we must begin to work with those provinces that are ready. I believe that Manitoba has already expressed its willingness to work with the Franco-Manitoban community on the immigration file, especially to find ways to foster francophone immigration in that province.

    Honourable senator, some currently ongoing proceedings lead us to hope that we will be working with the provinces.

    Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: Mr. Arès, you are being too modest. On the subject of health, you are the one who published a report last year, I think, in 2001, entitled Community Health Service in French. It stirred up some reactions, even in the provinces.

    Now this is what I am driving at. Immigration is a shared mandate, but the federal level is the one that sends officers to promote immigration in every country where Canada has an embassy. Prospective immigrants must appear before immigration officers. Have you already thought about raising the awareness of these officers with regard to the needs of your communities and the work your federation is doing? Have you envisaged the possibility of getting in touch with each officer in each Canadian embassy? I think that this could be a very fruitful initiative. You would have an opportunity to tell them that your communities are ready to receive those immigrants. Are you ready to undertake this kind of initiative?

º  (1645)  

    Mr. Georges Arès: Certainly, and I feel that it is necessary. We would like to meet those responsible for these issues at the Foreign Affairs Department and in the embassies, etc., in order to be able to discuss these topics with them. We would like to sit down with, among others, Mr. Paradis, the Secretary of State responsible for the Francophonie, and the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration, Mr. Coderre. I think that we should all meet to see what steps we can take abroad to try to attract immigrants to our communities.

    Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: You could perhaps even do a study and publish a short document. It would be useful for us here in Parliament. None of the committee members is in the cabinet. If we had a study from the federation showing the benefits of immigration, it seems to me that that could help. In any case, think about it.

    Ms. Diane Côté: Senator, the joint committee will look into those things.

    The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Senator Léger.

    Senator Viola Léger (New Brunswick, Lib.): Thank you.

    Good afternoon. I am very pleased to hear that you are looking for leadership in all the departments. Immigrants want jobs. I was surprised when Ms. Thibeault talked about $500,000. I was thinking that those immigrants are not the ones that I know.

    That leadership, of course, must exist in all the departments. The country is English and French, and both languages are equal. That is what I understood from Senator Beaudoin, the constitutional expert, but that is not what we find in reality and you are looking for solutions. That is my comment.

    I would like to ask you a question now. Can you tell me about your six-month pilot project for Vancouver? It is a pilot project that will last only six months.

    Ms. Diane Côté: The aim of the project is to assess the capacity of the francophone and Acadian communities to integrate immigrants. We have targeted six communities. Joint committees have been set up in these communities, composed of people from the Citizenship and Immigration regional offices, people involved in immigration at the provincial level, members of the francophone and Acadian communities, members of other ethnic communities and members of organizations currently funded by CIC to provide services to people newly arrived in Canada.

    These people will work together over the next six months to identify francophones who come to Canada, find out what services are and are not offered to them, what services exist in the community, and so on.

º  (1650)  

    Senator Viola Léger: So you are going to do a study. That is why it is six months long.

    Thank you very much.

    The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger) : I would like to ask a few short questions, if I may.

    I would like to come back to some of the discussions we have had. To begin with, I have a question for the constitutional experts.

    Mr. Arès, you talk about giving the children of new francophone Canadians the right to study in French. What would you do in the case of the so-called allophones, those people who come to Canada and have neither English nor French as their mother tongue? Should those people also have the right to study in English or French?

    Mr. Georges Arès: They should be given that right if they decide to belong to the francophone community. We need to be an open society. We need to find ways to accept these people and integrate them into our schools. These are people that want to settle in our communities and live in French. I think that we need to find ways to make this possible. That is why our project “Dialogue” proposes that our societies should become increasingly open and that we should find ways not to limit access to our institutions and our communities but rather to broaden that access. Yes, I support that.

    The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Will that be in the recommendations that you will be making to Minister Coderre in the fall at the federal-provincial conference?

    Mr. Georges Arès: I do not know whether we will have an opportunity to make recommendations, but Minister Coderre—

    The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): He is very open.

    Mr. Georges Arès: Perhaps he could include us in the federal delegation at that conference.

    The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Second, I noted that not much was said about illiteracy among the immigrants and refugees who come to Canada. In your opinion, is that an insignificant component, or is it somewhat important? In the later case, do you intend to include it in the efforts that you will be making over the next two years to prepare a sort of overall plan?

    Ms. Diane Côté: We are doing the first assessment of integration capacity in order to identify immigrants' needs. We suspect that they have a variety of needs, among other things, literacy training. Although one spouse may know the language, the other may not.

    The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): It is one of the factors being assessed in this pilot project.

    Ms. Diane Côté: Yes.

    The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): I imagine that we will be seeing the results. When you finish, you will be sure to send us a copy of your document, will you not?

     Ms. Diane Côté: Absolutely.

    The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): There are two other small points. An MP from the Conservative Party, whose name I have forgotten, recently launched an idea that I find interesting, and I wanted to pass it along to you. You can do what you like with it. The member was deploring the fact that many people who immigrate to Canada go to rural areas and then move to urban areas soon afterward. He was saying that it might an idea to allow a number of families to settle together, that is, permit a half-dozen families to settle in the same place. He felt that a group of families would be more inclined to stay in a small settlement than one family that came along. I find his idea interesting, and I wanted to pass it along to you, since it can certainly work in both francophone and anglophone communities.

    Here is my last question. I noticed that the six places where you are assessing the integration capacity are all in urban areas. Is the FCFA looking into the problem in rural areas as well?

     Ms. Diane Côté: That will be the second phase of our study. We did not have the resources necessary to do a broader study. So we targeted places where, according to our information, francophone immigrants had already arrived and needs were identified. In a second phase, we would like to study rural areas as well as the other...

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    The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): In northern Ontario, there are a number of towns, and francophones are found throughout the region. In villages of 2,000 or 3,000 people—I came from one of those villages myself—a few new families can make a big difference to the local economy, to the schools, etc. I would urge you to look at the rural side of the equation as quickly as possible.

    Ms. Diane Côté: Thank you for your suggestion.

    The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): On that note, I would like to thank you on behalf of my colleagues for your presentation. I hope that we will be able to include some of your comments in our reports to the minister concerned.

    We will take a two-minute break, then we will deal with future business of the committee.

    [Editor's Note: Proceedings continued in camera]