LANG Committee Meeting

STANDING JOINT COMMITTEE ON OFFICIAL LANGUAGES

COMITÉ MIXTE PERMANENT DES LANGUES OFFICIELLES

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Tuesday, May 15, 2001

• 1530

[Translation]

The Joint Chair (Senator Shirley Maheu (Rougemont, Lib.)): We are going to begin, colleagues. This is our third meeting on Air Canada's obligation to provide services in both official languages.

We are pleased to welcome Mr. Stephen Markey, Vice-President, Government Relations and Regulatory Affairs; Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci, Director, Employment Equity and Linguistic Affairs, and Ms. Chantal... I don't remember your title. Would you please introduce yourself?

Ms. Chantal Dugas (Section Head, Diversity and Official Languages): I am the Section Head, Diversity and Official Languages.

The Joint Chair (Senator Shirley Maheu): Very well. Welcome.

We will ask you to make a 10 to 15 minute presentation, Mr. Markey, and then the Members of Parliament and Senators will have some questions for you. Please begin.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci (Director, Employment Equity and Linguistic Affairs, Air Canada): With your permission, Madam Chair, I will be making the opening presentation.

Madam Chair, Members of Parliament and Honourable Senators, on behalf of Air Canada thank you for the opportunity to make this presentation to you today. It will be very brief—not more than six minutes. I would like to leave you enough time to ask any questions you may have today.

This is my colleague, Mr. Markey, the Vice-President, Government Relations, and my colleague, Chantal Dugas. Our president, Mr. Milton, is in Winnipeg today for Air Canada's annual general meeting. He has asked me to represent him. You can be assured that I will report back to him as soon as possible on the discussions that take place in this room this afternoon.

I doubt that many of your guests have been as happy as I am today to have this opportunity to throw a bit of light on everything that has been said in the media in the past few months with regard to Air Canada and its language commitments.

Mr. Rovinescu, our Senior Executive Vice-President, reiterated Air Canada's commitment to meeting its obligations when he spoke to the Transport Committee. Mr. Milton, to whom I report directly, is the person responsible for the language issue at Air Canada. There you have the assurance of the two highest-placed people in the company—I don't think I need to add that I am equally committed.

What I would like to do this afternoon is to correct the false or incomplete information that has been circulating in the press in recent months. I won't take long, for I want to leave you the time to ask all your questions.

Far be it from me to claim that Air Canada has a perfect record in language matters, but I have spent most of my career working at Air Canada to promote fairness and rights, particularly for francophones. In all fairness to Air Canada, we need to recognize its efforts and results in this case.

In recent months, a large number of accusations have been made with regard to Air Canada's language policy, and I am pleased that Treasury Board was able to correct some misconceptions last week. For my part, I would like to look at the sometimes contradictory expectations people have of Air Canada, expectations that fail to take account of the company's current circumstances.

I won't deny that integrating Canadian Airlines and its employees, the very great majority of them unilingual, will have an impact on Air Canada's ability to provide bilingual service. You have to realize that Air Canada agreed to hire all of Canadian Airlines' employees at the government's request. Canadian was not subject to the Official Languages Act. Canadian International did not have a policy of hiring bilingual staff. Air Canada's workforce jumped from 23,000 to 40,000 employees. It was inevitable that our bilingual capacity would be diluted. On the other hand, by taking Canadian's employees, Air Canada saved thousands of jobs.

But we didn't wait until Bill C-26, allowing the two airlines to merge, was adopted in July 2000. We took proactive steps, including the surveys that have received so much media coverage. I'll come back to this point.

• 1535

First of all, in January 2000, Air Canada stepped up its meetings with Canadian, to evaluate its language resources as accurately as possible and to organize language training programs adapted to immediate needs. The result is that since September 2000, dozens of flight attendants at a time have been removed from duty while they take their language tests and language training.

Excuse me for taking dollars and cents, but this has all been very costly. We are spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on language training at the moment, not counting the cost of replacing flight attendants who are in training. The program will last for at least four years, and cost $12 million at the very least. This is the cost of providing language training for Air Canada employees who are unilingual at the moment.

Second, ground and in-flight personnel scheduling departments were made aware of the situation they would be facing after the integration of the two airlines, so that they could be ready to assign staff to meet language needs. Air Canada has always assigned bilingual flight attendants to all its flights, whether or not the surveys showed there was a 5% demand. At the moment, I can guarantee that Air Canada has bilingual staff on all its flights, on both its domestic and international routes.

Our goal has always been to continue to guarantee this bilingual presence in all cases, as much as possible. But I have to tell you that even today, the merger of Air Canada and Canadian Airlines cabin crews is not complete, meaning that we cannot mix the crews. If you fly on a Canadian Airlines aircraft tomorrow, it is possible that there will not be any bilingual staff on board.

Merging the seniority list is one of the most complex problems we have encountered. The government initially expected that it would take three years before Canadian Airlines flights could offer bilingual service. We started working on this more than a year ago, six months before the bill was enacted, to try to make all these flights bilingual well before the three-year deadline.

These same steps, and others, have been taken with regional carriers. In fact, all new pilots now hired by Air Nova are necessarily bilingual, because they begin their careers on Beechcraft, an aircraft operated by two pilots with no flight attendants. One of the two pilots must necessarily be bilingual, in order to meet bilingualism requirements, and we took that into consideration. All Air Nova pilots hired today are bilingual when they are hired.

I know that you would also like to talk about equitable representation. I am ready to state right now that Air Canada has no problem with under-representation of francophones in general or among its pilots, and I will be happy to explain how and why this is so.

In all areas of customer service, including punctuality, baggage, waiting lines and bilingual service, there is always room for improvement. Zero tolerance is not a realistic option. The important thing to me is that you leave here today feeling that Air Canada has never intentionally neglected its language obligations, that it has never done anything to reduce them—as has been stated so often in the media in recent months—and that, on the contrary, recent events, that is Bill C-26 and the merger, have actually shown that the company is proactive when the situation warrants. There may be gaps, but never a lack of commitment.

Thank you for your attention. All three of us are available to answer your questions.

The Chair: Would you like to begin, Mr. Sauvageau?

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau (Repentigny, BQ): Good afternoon, ladies and gentleman.

I must say first that I am very pleased with your presentation. If everything is going well, as you say, there must be something that is not going so well. You do have an image problem, do you not? I think we can agree on that, at least.

You very kindly give us this card when we are elected as members of Parliament. It has a telephone number on the back which we call to get information. In Montreal, the number is 393-3333. They answer in English only; I have tried it. You could say that I did not happen to phone on the right day or speak to the right person, but that did happen to me.

• 1540

On page one of your presentation, you say that Mr. so-and-so and someone else guarantee that they will abide by the Act and that there is no problem. In the March 28, 1985, edition of La Presse—16 years ago—Pierre Jeanniot promised that the percentage of francophones at Air Canada would be 24% in the near future. In the near future is a very relative term, and Air Canada gave the Commissioner of Official Languages some figures in 1997 and 1998 showing that the figure was 16.7 per cent.

Can we rely on your fine-sounding promises when you say that we should trust you as regards equity for francophones, and is it true that you supplied figures showing a figure of 16.7 per cent?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: I'm really very pleased to answer this question. The question asked of Air Canada, the question that we ask our employees when they come to work for us and that Treasury Board asks us to ask is this: with which language group do you identify, francophone or anglophone? Sixteen per cent of our employees replied that they identified with the francophone group. There are a great many Air Canada employees who do not answer this question, and there may be a number of reasons for that. The one with which I am most familiar and which I can therefore mention with certainty is that we have a large number of employees whose mother tongue is neither French nor English. As an international company, we have employees from a variety of backgrounds. These employees identify with their own mother tongue. They are unable to answer this question. However, at Air Canada, there is a second question we ask all our employees for another reason: we ask them which language is their mother tongue. They all answer this question; there are no employees left out. Today, 23% of Air Canada's employees say that French is their mother tongue.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Is that what you sent to the Commissioner of Official Languages?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: No, what we send...

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Not to the Commissioner, but to Treasury Board?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: Yes, excuse me. What we send to Treasury Board is the answer to the question that Treasury Board has us ask: what percentage of your employees identify with each official language group? The answer we get in response to that is 16 per cent.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: What is the complaint process and follow-up procedure in place at Air Canada? Let us say that I am taking a flight. Of course, there is bilingual staff on all planes, except the ones I have been taking recently, unfortunately. If I want to make a complaint, how do I do that, and what is the follow-up procedure?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: I don't know what flights you have taken recently, but...

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Montreal-Toronto and Toronto Island, and the flight attendant could not understand the French words for a “glass of water”.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: I see. You were on a regional carrier. There are bilingual flight attendants on all Air Canada flights.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: I can get service in French on Singapore airlines between Singapore and Vancouver. But I was unable to do so on an Air Canada flight between Vancouver and Montreal.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: Generally speaking, the announcements are made in both languages.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: On a cassette, yes.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: In any case, I think...

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Excuse me, what is the complaints procedure?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: Complaints come to us through the Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages. They are reviewed at Air Canada. They are then passed on to the immediate superiors of the employees whose service was alleged not to have met our standards. An investigation is conducted in all cases, and the response we are required to send to the Commissioner within a certain length of time must include the results of the investigation and the corrective action that the local managers plan to take or have already taken to remedy the situation.

If we are able to identify exactly which employee feel to provide service in keeping with our standards, that is very helpful, because we can go to that individual and take the necessary corrective action immediately.

If we do not have the name and we cannot identify which employee failed to provide proper service, things become a little more complicated. We adopt a more general approach. I have given you a very broad overview of the way in which complaints are handled.

• 1545

[English]

The Joint Chair (Senator Shirley Maheu) Thank you very much.

[Translation]

You may ask your other question, if you like, Mr. Sauvageau.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: VIA Rail introduced a system for complaints that was quite interesting. There were complaint forms in the little pockets on train seats and you could write down the person's name, and so on. Given that there are a considerable number of complaints regarding Air Canada, and given that you are an important player, do you not think it would be simpler to give passengers a little four-copy form telling them what their rights are on your flights? We discussed this the other day with Treasury Board. It did not seem clear to committee members or the witnesses. There would be a four-copy form, one copy for the Commissioner of Official Languages, one for you and the two others for the other parties if necessary. In this way, airline passengers would know what their rights are to begin with, and secondly, they would know how to go about making a complaint. We were told that if it was a question of safety, they should go to Transport Canada, and that if it was a question of service, they should go to Air Canada, and that if it was something else, they should go to the Commissioner of Official Languages. The systems does not seem very clear.

Would you agree to placing a standard form on airplanes setting out passengers' rights on one side and including a complaint form on the other side, with the address, and so on. This would be a more easier, standardized approach for you.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: We already have comment cards on all our aircrafts. I agree that they are not placed in the pockets, but if you want to congratulate an employee or make a complaint, the flight attendant will give you a comment card.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Could this card be placed in the pockets on airplane seats?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: Yes, definitely. I think it is a very good idea. Thank you very much.

The Joint Chair (Senator Shirley Maheu): Thank you, Mr. Sauvageau.

Senator Gauthier.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier (Ontario, Lib.): Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to come back to Part VI of the Act, which talks about equitable representation. I listened to you carefully. Mr. Sauvageau asked a question about the so-called statistics we get about the representation of francophones and anglophones at Air Canada. The only information we have is the annual report of the Commissioner of Official Languages.

When I look at the figures for 1999—not those for today, when you have 40,000 employees—I see that at that time, you had 22,000 employees, 45.7% of whom said they were anglophones. That is what I see in the report: anglophones: 45.7% or 10,043; francophones: 16.7%; unknown language: 37.7%. There were 8,294 people working at Air Canada for whom we do not know whether they are francophone or anglophone.

You told Mr. Sauvageau that Air Canada had some allophones, as we call them, people who speak a third language. That is not the issue. Air Canada is subject to the Official Languages Act. I am not talking about allophones. I am talking about English- and French-speaking Canadians who work for you. Do not mix them up with the allophones. I do not want to take anything away from them. They are good technicians, good individuals, but the Official Languages Act applies to francophones and anglophones.

Why is it that the statistics you give Treasury Board are so incomplete, to describe them politely? In the case of more than one third of the people working at Air Canada, we do not know whether they are francophones or anglophones. The main issue is that the Act requires you to ensure equitable representation when you hire your employees. This leads to another principle, the language of work. If the boss is anglophone, naturally, he or she is going to expect to be addressed in English.

I could ask a number of questions on this, but I would just like you to tell me how you explain the 37.7% figure? I listened to what you told Mr. Sauvageau. That is not satisfactory.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: Employees answer this question if they wish, Senator. When we realized that we had such a high proportion of “unknown” answers to this question, we asked all our personnel services to tell people filling in the questionnaire when they are hired to go back and to answer that question if they fail to do so initially. If they refuse, we cannot force them to answer.

• 1550

You have made me think of something today. In future, given the high percentage of “unknown” answers we get for this specific question, I think we will start sending Treasury Board information on mother tongue as well.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: I am well aware of all that, but I have been here for 30 years, and we've been asking the same question for 20 years. The question was specific: are francophones properly represented within Air Canada? The figures we have show that this is not the case. They show that there is a problem in this regard, and you tell me it is because employees are not answering the question. I am not crazy, and it seems to me that when 37% of people refuse to say which language they speak in a country that has two official languages, there is a serious problem.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: Actually, Senator, they do not tell us with which language group they identify. If they are allophones, they may identify with the Italian or Chinese language; they do not identify with either of the official languages. In the eastern part of the country, these people are often educated in both languages at the same time, and they no longer identify more with one language rather than the other. That is the explanation we have for this phenomenon today. Personally, I would rely much more on the 23% who say French is their mother tongue, than on the 16% figure.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: I understand your situation, but I have trouble explaining it to Canadians who have complaints. I have had a few experiences on Air Canada about which I will not speak today, in which unilingual francophones from northern Ontario were going to Montreal for medical care. There was not one single person on the aircraft that could serve them a glass of water in French. The people in question were unilingual francophones from northern Ontario. Such things happen. That is just an example.

We get complaints. Some people say that they tried to get service in French, but they were unable to do so. You tell me that more than one third of your employees refuse to say whether they speak English or French. That is not a satisfactory answer. I am sorry, but your obligation is to ensure that your staff is able to serve their customers in either of the two official languages. You are confessing today that you cannot do so, because employees do not tell you which official language they use.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: I could add, Senator, that in the case of staff that deals with the public, Air Canada hires bilingual employees only. If you are talking about flights in northern Ontario, you are talking about Air Canada's regional carriers. The status of Air Canada's regional carriers was clarified in Bill C-26. You are talking about Air Ontario in this case, if there was a flight from northern Ontario. Until Bill C-26 was passed, according to our interpretation, that company had no obligations regarding the official languages. You are correct to say that until that time, it had very few bilingual employees. However, since last July, there has been a tremendous effort to make all these employees bilingual.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: We will look at the statistics next year. Are you telling me that the situation will be better next year?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: Given the language training effort we are making at the moment, we expect that by the end of 2001, 440 flight attendants on regional carriers will have taken language training. So the figures cannot help but be better next year.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: I have one final question.

The Joint Chair (Senator Shirley Maheu): Your time is up, Senator Gauthier. You can come back later.

Mr. Godin.

Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP): Thank you, Madam Chair. I would like to welcome all of you to the committee.

I can tell you that personally, I am dissatisfied with Air Canada in several respects. We may not go through all the issue today, because we are here to talk about the official languages. I would just like to tell you that when you get to the Ottawa airport, and have to wait until the last minute at Gate 8, and you are trying to get to Bathurst to make a speech before 500 people, and you find there are two Gate 8, and you realize that you are at the wrong gate, it is not very much fun. That happened to me last week. But it did not end there. I sent this letter to Mr. Milton.

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As far as I know, we are not in northern Ontario here. This is Ottawa, the nation's capital. I was going to Bathurst, New Brunswick, on the Acadian peninsula, and I stopped in Montreal. I think that we are not talking about northern Ontario in the case of a flight between Ottawa and Montreal. All the information provided on the aircraft was in English and we francophones had to deal with a cassette. We got our information from a cassette.

I have already asked Treasury Board and the Department of Transport this question: What happens when the plane starts to lose altitude? What cassette do we use to get our information at a time like that?

Apparently the answer must come from Air Canada. This is the third group of witnesses we have heard from. I do not know whether you will tell me that there is a fourth set of witnesses I should address the question to. So far I have not been told what a francophone should do in the case of an emergency. It appears that if there is an emergency, it is just too bad, but we francophones are on our own. I was there. The flight attendant spoke English only.

You know Mr. Yvon Charbonneau, who is the Parliamentary secretary to the minister of Health, a good Liberal. He was behind me and I said to myself that I would use him as a witness. I told him to go along with me. At the door, I asked the flight attendant where the plane was going after ward. I guess she didn't have a cassette to give me to tell me where the plane was going. She said:

[English]

I don't speak French.

[Translation]

In the plane, when there was an announcement that:

[English]

You can pick up all your belongings at the Sky Chef,

[Translation]

I said to myself that it was too bad but the francophones were all going to lose their luggage because there was no cassette in french. That is Air Canada's service.

It is unacceptable. Unacceptable! The population of Ottawa and Montreal taken together, is in the millions. We are no longer talking about 5%. Don't you worry, I understood everything that was going on, but I pity the poor francophone on the plane who did not understand anything whatsoever.

Are you going to stop conducting tests on that? I may be a thorn in your side, but you will be getting some letters from me. It will continue. How does one lodge a complaint? By writing a letter to the president and copying Ms. Adam, the ombudsman, Mauril Bélanger, Ms... Everybody is going to get my letters. I will keep doing this until we get service at Air Canada.

But that isn't all. Two weeks earlier, I arrived at the Ottawa Airport. I think that there are now more than a million people who live in Ottawa, following the amalgamation. Ottawa is the capital of Canada. I had 30 minutes to go to the counter and get service. When I began speaking in French, I was told:

[English]

Sorry, sir. I don't speak French.

[Translation]

What am I to do? Wait another 30 minutes in another line in order to get service in French and run the risk of finding myself in front of another anglophone? I am not telling stories here. Two weeks before that, the same thing happened.

This is why I am not at all satisfied with what is going on in Air Canada. You can tell me anything you like, talk to me about your training, etc. I am talking to you about specific cases of flights departing from Ottawa, right here, and going through Montreal, not Toronto, but flights going between Ottawa and Montreal.

One morning I boarded a plane and tried again. On the flight between Montreal and Ottawa, there was a francophone who spoke English. I decided to sit in front of the emergency door, because the flight attendant would have to ask me some questions if I sat there. She told me: “You take the door and you pull it outside.” I asked her how you did that. Do you do this when the plane has stopped? When do you pull the door? She said: “Wait for my instructions. I will tell you when to throw it.” If you don't speak my language, what will happen? I want to know what to do in case of an emergency. Is it only the information that you are given when you board the plane, or is it the information that you are given in case of an emergency, when you realize that you have hit the tree or the end of the runway?

I may be telling this story in a comical way, but that is really what is going on at Air Canada. I want some changes to be made. Your way of operating is just not working any more. I don't want to listen to a cassette. I want there to be a human being capable of communicating with me for the $1,100 that the government of Canada turns over to Air Canada every week so that I can travel on its planes. I don't have a $250 ticket. I pay $1,100. Any individual who travels from Bathurst to here should be able, particularly if he or she does not speak both languages... The Official Languages Act says that a person must be able to have service in both languages, and the Act is not adjusted to suit certain circumstances.

There is no excuse. At the airport, you should be able to be served in your language. You are entitled to ask for a francophone. You wait 30 minutes before you can get to the counter. Your plane is about to take off.

• 1600

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: For of all, I want to assure you, Mr. Godin, that I agree with you. I am not taking what you have said lightly, not at all. I hear you very very well. I would like to go back over something that I have said already.

The flights that you took are flights provided by our regional carriers. These are not Air Canada flights. These regional carriers have clearly been subject to the act since July and are right now making incredible, unbelievable efforts in order to...

Mr. Yvon Godin: Excuse me. I couldn't care less. If I am a francophone, with the Official Languages Act, I don't have to board a plane and put my life in jeopardy. I know that they are making an effort, but they have been subject to the legislation since the month of July. Why was I not able to have the service in my language, as stipulated in the Official Languages Act?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: I agree that these two companies, Air Nova and Air Ontario, have been subject to the legislation since last July. Eighty per cent of Air Nova's personnel is bilingual; Air Nova is capable of providing good bilingual service. Air Ontario did not have very many bilingual employees. We are currently in the process of training these employees. We also have collective agreements. You will agree with me that we cannot show these people the door. Our only option is to train these people now that the legislation is making it mandatory for these companies to be bilingual. And this is what we are spending the money on right now. I am telling you that they will be ready as quickly as possible. Many have already taken and passed these courses. They are now able to provide bilingual service although they could not do so six months ago. But I will not hide the fact that we still have unilingual English employees that we have to put somewhere on these regional carrier planes.

The Joint Chair (Senator Shirley Maheu): Thank you, Ms. Perreault-Ieraci. You may come back to this issue later on, if you wish, Mr. Godin.

Mr. Yvon Godin: In addition, Madam Chair, I am going to provide all committee members with a copy of the letter I sent to the president of Air Canada.

The Joint Chair (Senator Shirley Maheu): Very well, Mr. Godin.

Senator Losier-Cool.

Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool (Tracadie, Lib.): Thank you, Madam Chair. Welcome.

I know that Air Canada has been recognized internationally as the company with the best reservations system. But I agree with what Mr. Godin has said about flights departing from Moncton, in New Brunswick. I have had the same experience. I cannot tell the story in such a humorous way, but these are things that happen, regardless of whether you are dealing with service in the air, on the ground or at the ticket counter.

You gave an answer to Mr. Sauvageau with respect to the complaint process. I hope I misunderstood; I hope that this is not limited to putting an evaluation sheet in the pocket. That is not enough.

As far as I am concerned, this is all about Air Canada's image. The many complaints that Air Canada have received pertain to its image. When you write four, five or six letters, it's about image. It seems to me that Air Canada could do better. It should do better.

Regional carriers are very important for Air Canada. You know how many francophones travel in eastern Canada. A great deal of improvement is required. And it is not only about pilots. There is also the issue of the quality of the french. You will tell me that I have service in French, but I have to make a real effort to understand the French that is spoken. And there is also the matter of the quality of the cassettes. Mr. Godin did not mention this. We do not understand the cassettes.

This all adds to the frustration of clients and hurts Air Canada's image. I hope that with what you have said today, the situation will improve, but much remains to be done and I would beseech you to do this for francophones. I am sure that you know that the Official Languages Act does not mean “a small number”, or “where numbers warrant” or “5%”. The Official Languages Act means equality.

• 1605

Perhaps this is not a question. It is simply a comment, but I wanted to say this.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: Thank you very much, Senator.

I take your comment seriously and I think that no one around this table gives more importance to Air Canada's image than I do, after so many years. I would perhaps have liked to comment on a few small matters, but I am sure that this will come out in another way. I will take the opportunity then, but thank you very much.

The Joint Chair (Senator Shirley Maheu): Senator Rivest.

Senator Jean-Claude Rivest (Stadacona, PC): Good afternoon.

Very often, with public relation firms, I have a very good... [Editor's note: inaudible] Legally speaking, has it been resolved, is it definite that the Official Languages Act applies to what you would call regional carriers?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: Indeed, it is very clear now that Air Canada is responsible for ensuring that regional carriers provide bilingual services wherever there is a demand. The Air Nova and Air Ontario carriers came under the legislation in July 2000, but as Mr. Godin pointed out, it is not because the legislation was adopted yesterday that it is perfect today, because we had a lot of work to do with these carriers. Air BC will be subject to the legislation as of July of this year. These people are also taking language training right now and therefore a good number of them should be ready by the summer. As for Canadian Regional Airlines, they too will come under the legislation in a year's time, I believe.

Senator Jean-Claude Rivest: That was my next question. You talked about Air Nova where 80%... First of all, let's talk about the planes that depart from Ottawa. As Mr. Godin said, this is the national capital. It seems to me that are priorities here. We should ensure, in personnel management that providing such service is a must, right now. It's not complicated. There is a pool of people who justify this, whether this is for Air Nova or any other carrier.

As for Canadian Regional Airlines, I understand that it is going through integration, but there are regions in Canada where francophones take the plane. We want to see an action plan. If you tell us that you are going to provide service in French and, give language courses to the staff at Canadian Regional Airlines, that is going to take one, two, three, quatre, five years. It seems to me that there are some specific requirements that need to be met, for example, in Ottawa, in the eastern part of the country, for Acadians, in the north east, where the francophones live. Start there. It's really too bad, but very few people at Canadian Regional Airlines speak French, but those that do should be put on those flights and that's that. As for the others, they need to be trained and the services need to be extended in order to meet the commitments.

You are telling us that you will be integrating Canadian, giving French courses, but that it's a very long process, that it will begin in July of next year and that someone doesn't learn to speak French in ten minutes and that this all costs money. But we don't feel that there is a will to do this. You can resolve cases, respond to the letters sent by our friend Mr. Godin. That's all well and good, but we don't get the feeling that there is some type of concrete short-, medium- and long-term plan. Of course this is difficult but start with Ottawa and then move on to Bathurst, Moncton, Fredericton, Sault Ste. Marie, etc.

There are places like Toronto, for example, through which everyone in Canada must pass. What is being done in Toronto? That's important. In Montreal, things seem to be going all right, generally speaking, that we cannot neglect Toronto. It's not the capital of Canada, but all francophones in Canada have to go through Toronto at some point.

One could understand that there may be a problem on a night flight between Yellowknife and Vancouver, but wherever there are francophones, service should be provided and these customers should feel that we care about them and that there is willingness to provide the service. Do you understand what I mean when I am talking about a plan?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: Yes.

Senator Jean-Claude Rivest: Do you have more than public relations?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: First of all, may I say that I am the one who prepared...

Senator Jean-Claude Rivest: You are very good at public relations.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: ...that presentation, and I don't work in public relations?

Senator Jean-Claude Rivest: You should fire all the people in public relations at Air Canada and tell them to take you on. You are much better than they are.

• 1610

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: I did point out that I was not going to tell you just anything, but we were not perfect and that there was room for improvement.

Senator Jean-Claude Rivest: You may not be telling me just anything, but you are using euphemisms. This reminds me of ministers who talk about official languages. We have achieved tremendous progress, but problems persist. There are still problems of interest to us.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: Yes, there are still problems and yes, some problems are more pressing than others. I think you will now find that there are bilingual employees on all Air Nova flights departing Ottawa. One must not forget that there is only one flight attendant on these flights and since there are unilingual flight attendants left, these people have to work somewhere. We make an effort to have bilingual flight attendants on board flights departing from cities where that's a priority, and Ottawa is one of them.

Measures have been taken in Toronto over the past few years so that there are always bilingual employees at the RapidAir counter, for example, where all the passengers from Montreal and Ottawa must go. If you go to one of these counters, it is possible that you will have a unilingual employee before you. The directive given to this employee is to immediately find someone who speaks French and, generally speaking, the person to his or her left or right will speak to you in French.

I often use RapidAir, and now they make their own announcements at the RapidAir counter because there are so many bilingual employees there. So we concentrate on the most-sensitive areas. Is our success rated at 100%? Probably not. But we did focus on the most sensitive areas.

Senator Jean-Claude Rivest: With Canadian Airlines as well?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: With Canadian Airlines as well. The deployment of linguistic resources is perfectly adequate on flights. There are still improvements to be made in ground services; that is being done right now in co-operation with our unions, of course, since we can't achieve that alone. We are aware of priority places and we have already taken all measures necessary so that in the medium and long term, new employees are linguistically prepared as quickly as possible. But as one of you said, one does not become bilingual overnight and that's quite true.

We have had to integrate 16,000 unilingual English employees. We were forced by law to take them on. I think it was fair to offer them a job in Canada, as a matter of fact, but they were unilingual and we had to integrate them. Therefore we have to train them. That's the only solution, because they are our employees.

The Joint Chair (Senator Shirley Maheu): Thank you, Madam.

Mr. Bellemare.

Mr. Eugène Bellemare (Ottawa—Orléans, Lib.): Thank you, Madam Chair.

I don't have any dramatic or funny anecdotes to relate like my colleague Yvon Godin, since I don't travel as much as he does. I rarely travel, and the people from Air Canada would undoubtedly say that I don't travel enough.

The incident that Mr. Godin related may seem funny, but really, it was a difficult situation. He spoke of emergencies. He gave the example of an aircraft that hits a pole or that overshoots the runway and he'd like to know whether in such situations he should break down the back door or the front door, with his foot or his hand. But there are situations that are closer to the one related by Senator Gauthier.

For example, are there defibrillators aboard all aircraft?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: I don't think there are defibrillators aboard all aircraft. But Air Canada started installing them about a year ago, I believe. Our flight attendants are trained to use these defibrillators.

Mr. Eugène Bellemare: Is this the case aboard aircraft that fly within Canada or those that fly abroad?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: I will let Mr. Markey answer that question.

[English]

Mr. Stephen Markey (Vice President, Government Relations and Regulatory Affairs, Air Canada): All of Air Canada.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: All of Air Canada.

Mr. Stephen Markey: But we'll clarify that for you.

[Translation]

Mr. Eugène Bellemare: Let's take the case of someone who has a heart attack. As Mr. Godin said, there are many unilingual francophones, just as there are many unilingual anglophones. It could happen aboard an aircraft that someone needs more than a glass of water, that he has a heart attack, for example, panics and does not know what to say. Your report is very encouraging, but could you assure us that in Canada people can feel safe, first, because there are defibrillators on board and, second, because if people need such apparatus, they will not panic because no one can speak to them or understand them?

• 1615

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: The ideal situation, Sir, and I do agree with you here, is that everyone be able to understand one another aboard aircraft right now.

Mr. Eugène Bellemare: I will draw a comparison in what I'm about to say. When you travel by plane in Europe, the service is multilingual. When you travel in some parts of the United States, the service is unilingual English, but in other areas of the United States, service is bilingual, with the second language being either Spanish or French. When you travel in certain parts of Canada, the service is unilingual English. I don't understand that. Am I in the United States? I'm near Oregon. I'm in the Vancouver, Calgary or Edmonton region. It's not easy to obtain service in French and I can only wonder whether I'm in my own country.

My country is a place where I should feel at home, where I should feel safe and comfortable. The view of people like Benoît Sauvageau and his Bloc Québécois group bothers me, because they say that I don't really feel at home when I travel in Canada outside of Ottawa.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Do you mean I'm right?

Mr. Eugène Bellemare: That bothers us, because we want to live in both languages. Air Canada has a responsibility to make sure that people feel at home everywhere. It's not a matter of being desperate or not understanding a second language, but of feeling at home. I want to feel at home in Edmonton. I don't want to get the feeling that I have to walk around carrying two revolvers to defend myself.

If I travel in that region, I want to feel welcome, I want to feel at home, but without offending anyone by saying unpleasant things. Is it a matter of numbers or need, in your opinion? Is having bilingual public servants a matter of law or common sense? Are our public servants more important than passengers?

I respect what you have done in the case of Canadian Airlines and congratulate you for that, but you must not stop there. You now need to insist on people learning a second language, not so that they can defend themselves in the Supreme Court of Canada or teach at the University of Montreal, but so that they can understand what people who speak the other language are saying.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: I understand.

Mr. Eugène Bellemare: You say you are spending hundreds of thousands of dollars. You spend not just hundreds of thousands of dollars but millions of dollars on fuel, bolts and parts for aircraft. Language requirements are just as important as bolts and fuel. It is about our country. But we are asked whether there are enough of us on board. If I go to Hamilton, I am asked whether there are enough francophones in Hamilton. If so, I will be spoken to in French; otherwise, I will not. Do I need to be accompanied by a lot of people, a team of unilingual francophone activists, for example, to insist that the in-flight personnel speak French to me?

At times, you do not mind switching from one language to the other. But the bottom line is, you should feel at home on Air Canada; otherwise, the name will have to be changed to Air something else.

• 1620

The Joint Chair (Senator Shirley Maheu): Mr. Bellemare, can we give the witness a chance to answer briefly?

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: [Editor's Note: Inaudible]

The Joint Chair (Senator Shirley Maheu): Go ahead, please—

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: My initial reaction to what you are saying is that it is not strictly a legal or numbers issue. In a service organization that is attempting to provide good service, you are right, it is a common sense, commercial issue. Where our clientele is francophone, we must be able to provide quality service in French.

Mr. Eugène Bellemare: Yes, but are there no bilingual people who want to be Canadian? Is your message meant only for unilingual francophones?

The Joint Chair (Senator Shirley Maheu): I will come back to you on the second round, Mr. Bellemare. Ms. Perreault-Ieraci, could you wrap up?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: Air Canada does not treat this issue as one of numbers alone. At the risk of repeating myself, regardless of survey results from 10 years ago, we have placed bilingual flight attendants throughout and wish to continue doing so. I cannot say this will be done overnight, but we wish to continue doing so with the employees of Canadian Airlines and the regional carriers. That is our goal, and to answer the question, perhaps it is a longer term goal, but that is what we aim to do. That is in fact what we were already doing with Air Canada.

The Joint Chair (Senator Shirley Maheu): All right. Mr. Drouin.

Mr. Claude Drouin (Beauce, Lib.): Thank you, Madam Chair.

It is my turn to thank you for being here. It is important. This debate has been going on for a number of years, and we have to work together to improve service quality in both languages. I would just like some clarification on this form that Mr. Sauvageau discussed, and with which you are apparently in agreement.

He even suggested a form in quadruplicate so that it could be sent to Treasury Board, Transport Canada, the Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages and Air Canada, to ensure serious follow-up. Would you agree to that? Do you have to come up with this form, or do we have to initiate the process through Transport Canada, the Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages or Treasury Board to satisfy ourselves that this form—

Personally, I think that would be an incentive to provide the best possible service. It would further motivate Air Canada employees, who you say are providing ever-improving service. That is the first point I wanted to make. Are you going to draw up the form, or is it up to us to make sure there is a form in quadruplicate?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: What I can say today, what I can assure you, is that since Mr. Markey agrees that it is an excellent idea, it is now up to us to propose it to Air Canada and see what can be done. I think it is Air Canada's responsibility, in fact.

Mr. Claude Drouin: In quadruplicate, with return addresses?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: Look, I do not know what the end result will be and what exactly will be doable, but I assure you I will deal with it promptly and see what we can do.

Mr. Claude Drouin: Thank you, Ms. Perreault. I would be upset if you went to a great deal of effort to set up a system, only to find in the end that it only works for Air Canada and that we then have to work on another system. If you cannot do it, or if it is too restrictive, we will look at what we can do about getting a form in quadruplicate that people can send to four places, including Air Canada.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: Right. I should point that it is up to the passenger; the passenger is free to decide whether to send copies to all four places.

Mr. Claude Drouin: That will be up to the passenger.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: Passengers will have to send the forms themselves.

Mr. Claude Drouin: Yes.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: Alright.

Mr. Claude Drouin: Yes. The passenger will have four copies with four addresses and will have to decide whether or not to send them.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: We do conduct a lot of surveys on in-flight service quality, and there is almost always a question on official languages. Those results remain with Air Canada, of course. You want passengers to be able to send the form wherever they want, but our surveys already give us a good idea what passengers think of our service.

• 1625

Your question gives me the chance to add that in 2000, we got 50 complaints about service through the Commissioner of Official Languages. I am talking about service in the air and on the ground. There were a few more complaints than that, but in terms of the service in question today, there were 50. We carry 30 million passengers. There are 2,800 flights daily. We got 50 complaints from the Commissioner. There were 16 for regional carriers, Mr. Godin, 16.

An organization adjusts its service based on the complaints it receives. We would be pleased if Mr. Godin wanted to send us his complaints. That is also what enables an organization to improve. If people have a negative impression and do not let us know, it is very hard, on the basis of 50 complaints, to admit we have a terrible image problem.

Senator Jean-Claude Rivest: Here, in just ten minutes, you have received four complaints. It is because people...

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: Yes, and I do realize that many people do not complain. But I am inviting you to do so, Mr. Godin. That might give us the full picture.

Mr. Claude Drouin: Madam Chair, this is cutting into my time.

Your second point, Ms. Perreault, was that there were 440 flight attendants undergoing language training. How many flight attendants do you have all together?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: I am referring to flight attendants on regional carriers. I don't know the total number, but there are probably around 800 in all. So, a great number of those attendants will be receiving language training between now and year-end.

Mr. Claude Drouin: This represents more than 50%.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: Yes. I said a few minutes ago that 80% of Air Nova attendants are bilingual. That is far from being the case for Air Ontario and Air BC. It is mainly on those two carriers that we will have to focus our efforts.

Mr. Claude Drouin: I have one last point, Madam Chair.

You mentioned—and it's to be expected—that people cannot be fired because they are not bilingual. But do these people have an obligation to make an effort to learn their second language, or does their status as incumbent employees allow them to be opposed to training paid for by the company during their hours of work? Can they refuse it?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: That is an excellent question. I am not sure that we can force employees who, 20 years ago, were not hired for being bilingual, to become bilingual tomorrow morning. I'm not convinced that we can do this. What I can tell you, however, is that the employees hired by Air Canada or regional carriers as bilingual employees have a responsibility to remain bilingual.

Air Canada—and the regional carriers as well—retest all of its bilingual staff every two years. An employee who is hired because he or she is bilingual, and who loses this bilingualism over time, could be dismissed since bilingualism was a condition of employment. Of course, such an employee would be given all the chances in the world to become bilingual again, but if it is a condition of employment for an employee, it could become a reason for dismissal, yes.

Mr. Claude Drouin: There could even be incentives to take for unilingual staff courses. I think that Air Canada could be innovative. I am thinking of a company that recognizes an “employee of the month”—although I am not suggesting that Air Canada do this. In any event, people could be encouraged, there could be incentives and perhaps even some kind of advantage offered in order to encourage people to become bilingual.

Keep up your efforts; you have a lot of work ahead of you, but you are on the right track.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: We are making process. Thank you very much, Mr. Drouin.

The Joint Chair (Senator Shirley Maheu): Senator Beaudoin.

Senator Gérald A. Beaudoin (Rigaud, PC): I would like to raise another point.

An hon. member: The Constitution.

Senator Gérald Beaudoin: No, not that.

Official languages, basically, means that the languages are equal. I'm always surprised to hear what we usually hear. I do not want to be told about numbers of this and that. For the first time in Canada's history, the two official languages have become equal.

Measures must be taken to comply with this legal obligation. It is not exactly constitutional, but that is a different point of view.

Senator Jean-Claude Rivest: It wasn't far off.

Senator Gérald Beaudoin: It is quasi-constitutional in that regard, and it is constitutional in certain specific fields.

• 1630

So, why is it that this problem of equality is not understood? If it were accepted—and it must be accepted, because it is the law of the land—it would become necessary to do everything possible to achieve it. And please don't tell me that people are trying. I congratulate the people who are putting an effort into it. That's wonderful. But on a matter like this, when we talk about the equality of the two official languages of a huge federation—which is the case of our country—measures must be taken, whether they be legal, practical or administrative, in order to successfully reach this goal.

For example, we are told there are no flight attendants. My goodness, get some. If something is wrong, well, fix it. This is what happens in many sectors. As for official languages, there is equality between two languages that are very common worldwide. So, it seems to me that it is not the end of the world if we have to achieve this equality. Of course, it cannot be done in one day, but I do not see any reason why we cannot achieve equality between the two languages at the regional level.

As far as Canadian and Air Canada are concerned, you have certainly made some very major efforts, and I congratulate you on them. However, it is a requirement. Air Canada exists to provide a service, and provide it in both languages. The rest is of no consequence for me. That is why we have the two official languages of Canada. It is not a matter of numbers, as I said earlier, and I will repeat it. These are languages that have official status. Citizens are equal on an individual level, but that's another story. Linguistically speaking, both languages have official status. Therefore, we must find ways of adapting structures so that this equality will be achieved.

It has been done and is being done in other areas. The equality of the sexes is a fundamental principle, and it is at the heart of the Constitution. So, we are getting there. We cannot get there in a single day; it takes time. That doesn't matter; we will get there. We only need to change the laws and enforce them.

As for language, in my view, we cannot say that we will do what we can, and so on. We must do better than that. We must aim for a goal, and the goal is to achieve equal status for both official languages. I do not know whether this is a question, but this is what I think.

We could submit endless complaints. That is a good idea and I believe in it. This is a system that is acceptable in a large democracy, but if we want to comply with the laws of a country—and the Official Languages Act is certainly a very important piece of legislation—we must change the system. It is not a matter of improving on what was done in the past—that is not the answer. We have come to the second stage, and the second stage is the equality of both languages; it is not to provide services where they are requested. That is already a great deal, but having two official languages in a country means more than that.

As for deadlines, I know full well that this cannot be achieved very, very quickly, but there are nevertheless limits for those who have been waiting for a long time.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: I could not agree with you more. I can assure you, Senator Beaudoin, that we will get there. We will be successful. Everything is in place, and has been for many years. You are talking about the local level. We are in the process of doing at a local level what we did nationally with Air Canada. We will achieve our goals.

We have unilingual employees, and they will always be found somewhere on board our flights. We cannot achieve our goals only by hiring bilingual employees. I myself have been involved in this file for 12 years, and we have hired only bilingual employees during these 12 years. We no longer hire unilingual staff. Therefore, the figures have improved over the years, as we have hired more people, as we have provided language training, as we have done language testing, and as we have invested money in this area, not just hundreds of thousands of dollars, but millions of dollars. The language training program for the next four years will cost us 12 million dollars.

• 1635

A little earlier, someone asked whether we had a plan for the short, medium and long term. With the help of this 12 million dollars over the next four years, we will achieve our goals: I guarantee it.

Senator Gérald Beaudoin: When you hire staff, they must be bilingual. In that way, you are complying with the law.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: That is what we have been doing for 12 years. The regional carriers have also been doing this for many years.

Senateur Gérald Beaudoin: It is important to continue doing it.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: However, we have some catching up to do, and I admit it.

[English]

The Joint Chair (Senator Shirley Maheu): Senator Fraser.

[Translation]

Senator Joan Fraser (De Lorimier, Lib.): Thank you, Madam Chair.

[English]

Madam Perreault, I'm less cynical than Senator Rivest. I thought your presentation was very impressive, and I am persuaded that at your level there is a serious corporate commitment, one backed by $12 million. I would like you to tell us what you are doing beyond telling people they must learn the other language. For those thousands of Canadian employees we're basically saying to them, you must learn French, you must learn French, and you'll be fired if you lose it after you've learned it. What are you doing to change or strengthen the corporate culture so that at Air Canada it is no longer a burden—the way I have to pay the GST—to learn the other language, in the sense that in order to keep my job I must learn this language? Rather, it will become something that is not only natural but a point of absolute pride for everybody.

You've heard the horror stories. I'm an anglophone, and I've lived through them too. At the Rapidair counter in Toronto I've been snarled at when I've asked why they don't make announcements in French. “That's not my job; I don't have to do that,” she said in surly tones like that. Yet I've been looked at with some irritation at Air Canada counters in Montreal when I arrived speaking English. I got my service in English, but I think you know how.

Mr. Yvon Godin: You're lucky you got it.

Senator Joan Fraser: You get service in English everywhere in Air Canada. I'm not disputing that. I'm just suggesting that I'm not sure that down on the ground—even among your long-standing employees, let alone your thousands of new employees—this message has come through as a positive, as an advantage. It comes down to some extent to what Mr. Drouin was asking about incentives. What are you doing?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: I think the best answer, Senator Fraser, I can give you is that when I joined the company 25 years ago, there were no women among the executives at Air Canada. There were no francophones among the executives at Air Canada. I wish I had the annual report here, but there are quite a few women among the executives at Air Canada today. I think there are more now than ever before. There are quite a few francophones as well among the executives at Air Canada. My belief is that by this kind of example you bring the message to people at other levels that if you are bilingual, if you are a francophone, or if you have reached that level, it is worth it. I could probably make a speech about how much it's worth to passengers, but you are asking me what we are doing within the company to change the culture. By having 25% francophones and by having francophones in very sensitive and high levels of the hierarchy, we send that message.

Senator Joan Fraser: Have you given any thought, particularly now at this historic and very difficult moment for Air Canada in terms of personnel, to incentive programs, bonus programs, or employee-of-the-month or group-of-the-month awards on linguistic matters?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: Honestly, no. We haven't done that. It's a sensitive issue amongst employees, being distinguished because you're from one language, and you get acknowledged and even récompensé because you can speak a language and others cannot. We're not thinking about it right now. We thought about that earlier, and it's always come out that it could create difficulties amongst the different groups of employees. So it's difficult to know exactly how we should approach this, as good a suggestion as it may be.

• 1640

Senator Joan Fraser: I will not take much more time, but let me give you an example of something that happened to me many years ago. I was in Norway, very early on a Sunday morning in February, not the tourist season, on an internal flight from Oslo to Bergen. There was me and a plane full of Norwegians. All the announcements, of course, were in Norwegian. Halfway through the flight attendant came around with her little tray of goodies, and I said I would have coffee please—I didn't know how to say it in Norwegian. Oh, she said, I'm so sorry, I never realized there was somebody who spoke English on board, I'm so sorry I didn't make the announcements in English, what do you want to know, what didn't you understand? From then on everything that came over the PA system was in English. They redoubled their efforts to make sure that I felt secure and safe and informed on this flight. They didn't have to do that. If they had a linguistic requirement of 5%, I didn't meet it.

Mr. Stephen Markey: We need to get to the same place.

Senator Joan Fraser: You need to get to the same place and reward people who do that. She wasn't being rewarded for being anglophone, she was being rewarded—or should have been—for wonderful service.

Mr. Stephen Markey: Absolutely. That's exactly the kind of culture we need to create in Air Canada. It's going to take us time to do it, but I can assure you that Michèle and all our colleagues are committed to trying to do as much as we can on a regular basis. There's no lack of enthusiasm or commitment from us in trying to meet the expectations of the act and our undertakings to the government. It's just a matter of being able to do it in a methodical way and at a pace that makes sense for us at this point. But there's no lack of enthusiasm, there's no lack of willingness. What there may be, on occasion, is a lack of ability to get it done as quickly as we'd like, for a lot of the reasons Michèle talked about earlier. It's a good idea, and maybe we need to finalize it.

If I may clarify one thing, Madam Chair, we responded earlier to Mr. Bellemare by saying we thought there were defibrillators on all the planes. We have not yet approved that; we're still looking at doing it at this point. I'm told not all of the planes have defibrillators on them, but we're looking at that program at this point.

The Joint Chair (Senator Shirley Maheu): Thank you, Mr. Markey.

Mr. Binet.

[Translation]

Mr. Gérard Binet (Frontenac—Mégantic, Lib.): I am a new Member of Parliament and this is the first time that I have spoken at the Official Languages Committee.

An hon. member: Let yourself go, let yourself go.

An hon. member: You don't remember, but you spoke to Bellemare earlier.

Mr. Gérard Binet: I will prove to you that I am a new Member of Parliament: I am going to be less of a complainer. With time and experience, I am sure that I will become more critical.

I have attended the entire session. I have listened to what Mr. Godin had to say. There is no doubt that the matter of unionized employees comes up when two companies are merged. Mr. Godin is familiar with union issues; he used to be a union leader. Obviously, it must not be easy to deal with all of that.

Ms. Perreault, what you said earlier is borne out by the figures. There has been some improvement, and there will certainly always be room for improvement. The point I want to make, however, is that Air Canada is in fact a private company. I see that it has suffered losses. These were large losses, were they not?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: Yes, according to the most recent figures...

Mr. Gérard Binet: If Air Canada continues to pile up losses, could we see another carrier buying Air Canada, a carrier from another country, an American company, for example?

• 1645

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: As far as I know, that is a question for Mr. Collenette. He is the one who would decide whether or not to allow a foreign carrier to compete with or replace Air Canada, should it suffer very heavy losses, which I do not think will happen.

Mr. Gérard Binet: I come from the private sector, but I have also worked in a union environment. I used to work in the mines. These are two different worlds. I see that Air Canada is losing money, and at the same time is spending money to train people. That must not be easy, it must be hard to spend more money on training.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: For the time being, I do not think we have to spend more. Language training can only be offered to a limited number of staff at the same time. At 228, the number of employees is quite high, given that each of these employees will take training six times yearly, since they will be taking intensive immersion courses in six stages.

Mr. Gérard Binet: Does that mean that there will definitely be an improvement?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: That means that there will be an improvement next year. Our figures will be much better then. You are right, $12 million is a major commitment, especially since our profits are not what we hoped for at this time.

Mr. Gérard Binet: This means that we Canadians, from one ocean to another, are fortunate to have a private company that is running deficits but nevertheless invests money in order to offer its services in both official languages on its flights.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: I think that what you are saying, Mr. Binet, is that there is one airline company in Canada that is providing bilingual services at this time, and it is Air Canada.

Mr. Gérard Binet: I can tell you that I am proud that there is a Canadian company called Air Canada. I understand everything that my colleagues have said, and they are right, but in my opinion, the situation can only improve, according the figures that you have given us.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: We are taking steps to get it right.

Mr. Gérard Binet: The situation that exists today must be completely different from the one that existed 25 years ago.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: Yes, it is a totally different environment today, as far as language matters are concerned, than what I experienced 25 years ago, when I began at Air Canada.

Mr. Gérard Binet: In closing, I hope that there will be a Ms. Perreault at Air Canada for a number of years to come.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: Thank you, Mr. Binet.

[English]

The Joint Chair (Senator Shirley Maheu): Mr. Markey, would you like to add something to that?

Mr. Stephen Markey: No, but I was going to add parenthetically that we invest in this training because we feel it's part of our responsibility and our duty to do it. That's why we find the money, even though we've lost almost half a billion dollars in the last two quarters.

Senator Gérald A. Beaudoin: Half a billion?

Mr. Stephen Markey: Almost half a billion in two quarters, the last quarter of last year and the first quarter of this year.

We're not forecasting a similar trend, Senator. We're saying we have a business plan, we've made decisions that will get the airline back on a profitable basis, and in the long run, we're fully confident that we're going to be able to do that. But this is not an easy market for us to try to do that in. There's a lot of competition, much more competition than people realize, and an economy that is not performing at the level we would like it to at this point in time, just as we've taken on the obligations of merging the two airlines. But we are very confident that, ultimately, we're making decisions that will protect—to address your point—the longevity of this airline and its ability to continue to serve Canadians, and hopefully to improve in those levels of service in all areas as we go forward.

The Joint Chair (Senator Shirley Maheu): Thank you, Mr. Markey.

Ms. Bulte.

Ms. Sarmite Bulte (Parkdale—High Park, Lib.): Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I'd like to join my colleagues in thanking you for coming here today with your presentation.

Mr. Markey, I want to start with what you just said about the problem with competition. Do you not see the ability to provide services in both official languages as actually having a competitive edge?

Mr. Stephen Markey: Absolutely.

Ms. Sarmite Bulte: I see that as a preferred choice of people.

Mr. Stephen Markey: Absolutely.

Ms. Sarmite Bulte: That's your competitive edge.

Mr. Stephen Markey: Absolutely.

Ms. Sarmite Bulte: I understand you have competition, but I would see this bilingual airline as having a competitive edge over others, especially flying from Canada. It's just a quick comment.

• 1650

Second, investing in language training is great and important, but what is the success rate? I studied French, I take French lessons two or three times a week, and I still don't have the confidence to ask you a question in French. I understand it better than I speak it. But what is the success rate? I don't know what other way there is to be able to ensure that language freedom, but is there something you're doing to show our young people the importance of French? It starts almost at the basic education level, to ensure that we have people who communicate in both official languages. I think it's difficult when you bring it on later in your life, even if it's not impossible. I'd like to know what the success rate has been so far in the training.

Third, I go back to what Senator Beaudoin said about the equality of the languages. I understand there has to be a priority here in Ottawa or within Canada to ensure that there are not problems being encountered the way Mr. Beaudoin has encountered them, especially in Ottawa. I don't really think there's an excuse for that. But what is your policy with respect to service at an Air Canada counter, say, in Florida, where you have a significant francophone population going there? I have seen people go up to the counter in Miami and be very upset because there is no one who speaks French. When you're looking at Air Canada and the competitive edge, as Senator Fraser was saying—the reason I was flying that airline is that they speak my language or I can have access to that language—what's the policy there?

I'm not saying it should be the same priority as in Canada, but I would be interested in knowing what your policy is with respect to ensuring that there is service on our return to Canada, not just out of Canada or within Canada. If I go to New York City, I want to have the ability to walk up.... Say I'm flying Air Canada; I don't want to fly American Airlines. A lot of business is conducted in French in New York City. The last time I flew to New York, nobody spoke French.

Mr. Stephen Markey: Let me, if I may, start by making two points, and then I'll turn it over to Michèle.

I hope I didn't say we have a problem with competition, because that is certainly not the way we view the marketplace. I think competition is very healthy, and Air Canada has always been on the public record as saying we welcome competition. We think it's very beneficial, and I think the point you raised about language as being almost an additional product is important.

[Translation]

I had the same problem with the language.

[English]

I can't comfortably speak it, but I do make an effort. I think there are a lot of other people in the corporation who are continuing to make a strong effort to do it. Michèle can tell you more about our success rate, and I'd be happy to turn it over to her.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: True enough, Mrs. Bulte, it is not necessarily easy for everybody to learn a language. Some people are not necessarily gifted for languages. With people who are volunteers for our courses, we just don't let them down. In the accelerated learning courses we give to regionals and Canadian employees right now the success rate is 100%, because if somebody has a problem at one of the six levels, we won't let them go. We will keep them, and they will start over again at the first level, until they master that first level totally, then we will pass them onto the second level, and so on.

It's easier for some, it's more difficult for others. We don't let them down. It's the same thing with our maintenance of skills teaching program. Public contact employees of Air Canada have the choice to come back on courses to maintain their skills, because you're right, if you don't practise you will lose it, and we don't want to have invested that amount of money for people, only for them to lose it six months down the road because they can't practise it. So I hope this answers those questions on the rate of success.

• 1655

As far as Florida or New York is concerned, I don't doubt that you didn't hear French when you were down there, but surprisingly enough, there are a lot of Quebeckers in Florida amongst our staff at the airport. So it could have been inconsistent, but I was surprised myself—I don't have the numbers today—at the number of Quebeckers who are working in the United States and who can speak French to you, especially in Miami and Tampa.

Sorry, I didn't mention the policy because it is part of the legislation. It is, therefore, part of the policy to have these bilingual people at these stations.

Ms. Sarmite Bulte: Outside Canada?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: Oh, absolutely.

Mr. Stephen Markey: Absolutely.

Ms. Sarmite Bulte: Thank you.

The Joint Chair (Senator Shirley Maheu): All right. We're about to start a second round.

[Translation]

We will begin our second round and I give the floor to Senator Gauthier.

[English]

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: I want to put a question to Mr. Markey—you can send me the information. Training, in itself, is part of your business. If you want to stay competitive, you've got to train your people, mechanics or whatever; you have to give them language training. That's part of the expense, isn't it?

Mr. Stephen Markey: Absolutely.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: Can you give me, maybe by return mail, a copy or a letter stating how much money you spend on training overall, and then language training as a part of that? Thank you.

Mr. Stephen Markey: I will do that—to the clerk?

The Joint Chair (Senator Shirley Maheu): Yes, please.

[Translation]

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: Ms. Perreault-Ieraci, some time ago, I wrote frequently to Mr. Milton regarding official languages and Air Canada's policy. I wrote to him last December, and he replied in January—which was a speedy reply—on the subject of the cutting of 3,500 positions, which was carried out last winter. Is this exercise finished?

[English]

Mr. Stephen Markey: There were no staff cuts. The 35,000 people we've indicated we'd like to try to get off the payroll this year we're trying to deal with through attrition and voluntary severance. There were 350 who departed the company in the fourth quarter, another thousand or so in the first few months of this year, and the balance over the course of the year, Senator.

[Translation]

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: I ask the question because, when I wrote to Mr. Milton, my letter was answered by Mr. Douglas Port. I suppose that you know Mr. Port. In my letter, I asked whether the bilingual positions—not individuals—had been protected. This is how he replied:

Protecting certain positions that are occupied by bilingual or francophone employees would in this case mean refusing to allow the departure of employees who wish to change career paths.

In other words, he shifted the burden. I wrote back to him that that was not what I wanted to know. Did they intend to protect their bilingual positions? He had only to answer yes. But he answered that, if he did that, it might work to the disadvantage of francophones. That is not the issue. Could you ask Mr. Port to answer my question, because I have not yet received a satisfactory reply?

I will go on now to my second question, because I know that my time is limited and the chair will stop me.

In this same letter, I asked Mr. Port or Mr. Milton to provide me with Air Canada's official plan and program. You have a plan and a program, and I would like a copy. I asked for that in February, but have not yet received it. Could you please ask the appropriate person to send me a copy of the document so that we can review it?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: Okay. Could I answer the Senator's question? With regard to protecting jobs, the 3,500 employees who left were not replaced. This was a downsizing program. However, I can tell you that, if the Air Canada employees who dealt with the public took advantage of the departure program, they will all be rehired on the day that we begin hiring employees again, and they will have to be bilingual, because that has been our policy for 12 or so years. There may have been some administrative employees among the 3,500 staff. Given the rapid and complex changes in positions, each time a position becomes vacant at Air Canada, the language needs of the position are reassessed because the job is frequently adapted to the new employee. We take advantage of an employee's leaving to review the job. Whenever a position becomes vacant, the language requirements of the position are reassessed by me or by Chantal here. Therefore, the answer to your question is: no, they are not protected because when employees leave, they are not replaced.

• 1700

The answer should have gone on to say that whenever a position is vacated, the language requirements of that position are reassessed.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: That is a better answer.

[English]

Mr. Stephen Markey: Maybe you should ask her a third time.

[Translation]

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: No, but journalists have told us that, when Air Canada comes to testify before a parliamentary committee, its representatives are briefed before coming. Is it true that you have a file on Godin, on Beaudoin and on Mauril Bélanger?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: If you are asking me, I have not seen anything about... What interested me was to know who... [Editor's Note: Inaudible] But I think Air Canada, like any large company, knows who it is dealing with. It must know who Mr. Drouin is and who Ms. Fraser is.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: Have you seen the correspondence you have received from parliamentarians?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: Yes.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: You have been kept posted?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: Yes.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: That is all I wanted to know.

[English]

Mr. Stephen Markey: Absolutely.

[Translation]

The Joint Chair (Senator Shirley Maheu): Thank you, Senator Gauthier.

Mr. Sauvageau, it is your turn.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: First, you are going to conduct a study. You are going to consider putting the forms in the pockets in the seat backs and report back to this committee on that.

A voice: That's it.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: You conducted a survey on, among other things, in-flight official language use. Could we have a copy of the most recent survey?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: That will be made public, sir, yes.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Thank you.

In airports with over one million travellers and in all airports, instead of putting up little bilingual signs saying that service is available in both languages, could you put up large signs saying that in this airport, we are required to comply with the Official Languages Act?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: You know, we already had that. I am not quite sure... It was Transport Canada, in fact, and this time, it is more the responsibility of the facilities' owners, Transport Canada in other words, to put up signs in their airports saying that this airport is a bilingual airport. Air Canada has its signs on its own counters explaining that we provide service in both languages. As for the airport—

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Excuse me for interrupting you. I am not talking about those little things that say you can be served in both languages. I want it to say in the airport or on the Air Canada counter: We are required to comply with the Official Languages Act. That would be good for both the client and the employee.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: I will take that into consideration too. Thank you very much.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: When you were having problems with client service, bookings, schedules and so on, Mr. Milton came up with a clever public relations plan. There he was in the newspapers with his shirt sleeves rolled up. He said the company had 180 days, and after 90 days, it produced results. We are talking about image problems. That was tangible. That was acceptable. Why do you not do the same for official languages. I will give you 360 days instead of 180. You could say you have a plan to do something in 360 days, and in 190 days, it will be done.

Senator Jean-Claude Rivest: Milton's plan did not work. So do not suggest that for official languages.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: I have a problem with being told nicely that you are going to make an effort, that you are spending $12 million, that you are required to comply with the Official Languages Act and that eventually, you might just meet your commitments. I would like to have deadlines. I think the communications plans for the booking service and all that was in fact a good idea. I do not know whether or not it worked, but it was still a good idea.

In the same vein, if you or Air Canada consider the Official Languages Act to be important, why not conduct a similar advertising campaign, saying that within 360 days, you undertake to be able to serve all of your clients in both official languages in certain designated areas? After 180 days, you would announce that as a result of the $12 million you invested in language training, there are 448 more bilingual employees, and that there will be no more problems because there will be more training and everything will be taken care of.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: That plan already exists, sir.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Well then, make it public.

• 1705

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: It is provided to Treasury Board every year.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: That is not what I am saying.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: It is public.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Excuse me. There are public documents, and then there are publicized documents. True, if you post something on the Internet, you are making it public. However, if I were to read everything there is on the Internet, I would have a hard time getting through the day, would I not? Why not conduct a public relations campaign in which you announce that the Official Languages Act is important to Air Canada and that you undertake to meet a certain goal by a given date? You would have fewer image problems. What's more, your $12 million investment would get publicity, and the committee would know your timetable.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: You are a good PR man, better than I.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: So you agree! Thank you. I like clear answers. I greatly appreciate them. Don't you agree?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: I definitely think it is an excellent idea. I am not going to promise you today that it will be done. It probably has to be part of a whole communications plan. That will have to be looked into. I definitely undertake to submit that personally to the relevant Air Canada authorities and to give it genuine discussion.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: I would like to make two small requests. Can you get back to us on the forms and on the posting of the requirement to comply with the act in airports?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: Yes.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Thank you very much.

The Joint Chair (Senator Shirley Maheu): Mr. Bellemare.

Mr. Eugène Bellemare: Thank you, Madam Chair.

If I understood your conclusion correctly, Ms. Perreault, the issue of two languages, for Air Canada, is about need rather than numbers. It is not about understanding; it is about a desire for passengers to feel at home in the air. It is not a legal matter; it is about Canadian common sense. It is not a matter of resources, but of corporate culture and policy. That constitutes a corporate commitment. Am I right?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: Mr. Bellemare, Air Canada provides service in Canada's two official languages out of respect above all, and also for the reasons you mentioned.

Mr. Eugène Bellemare: I would like to ask a second question. There have been hearings with Transport Canada and Treasury Board. I imagine the clerk has sent you the blues or minutes of proceedings for those meetings.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: I have not seen them.

Mr. Eugène Bellemare: Did the clerk send them, Madam Chair?

The Joint Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Jean-François Pagé): I was not asked to do so but I am quite willing to.

Mr. Eugène Bellemare: That makes my question pointless, Ms. Perreault. I have to find another way to ask my question.

People from Transport Canada pointed the finger at you. People from Treasury Board pointed the finger at you. They said some rather unpleasant things about Air Canada.

Today, you have the chance to defend yourselves. I imagine that like any large national or international corporation, you have employees who took notes during the meetings. Your organization is huge. Surely you must know what has happened in the past. You must know what was discussed at those meetings, especially at the two hearings with Transport Canada and Treasury Board.

What do you have to say to defend yourselves against the accusations of Transport Canada and Treasury Board?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: Could you give me an example of what these two institutions may have said, and which are the ones we should be concerned about? I'm not quite certain what it is you would like me to discuss.

• 1710

Mr. Eugène Bellemare: Generally speaking, it was a matter of percentages and whose responsibility it was to respond to complaints and we were told that it didn't seem to end up with Air Canada. That is at least what I understood based on how he answered the questions.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: I thought that we had friends in all those organizations.

I can tell you again today what we have done and the results that we have achieved. As to the fact that Transport Canada and Treasury Board sent the ball back to our camp, I would imagine that that's the way the game is played and I can accept that.

Mr. Eugène Bellemare: In order to be specific, I would add that they also were throwing the ball amongst themselves, and were not present when the other appeared.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: I don't intend to do anything of the sort today, but if you ask me specific questions, I may change my mind. I would imagine that everyone has their own specific mandate. Transport Canada has a mandate. I do not have many dealings with the department and I don't know what they may have said. Complaints are forwarded to us by the Official Languages Commission and not by Transport Canada. I don't know those people.

As to Treasury Board, Air Canada has always had very close ties to them. They have always been of great assistance to us in providing advice on how to go about things, on best practices and so forth. We have always had close and efficient relations in my opinion with Treasury Board.

Therefore, I don't know what exactly I should be defensive about, but today I would challenge anyone to say that we are doing nothing, that we are not acting appropriately. I would be incapable of accepting this type of a statement. I have been working in this field for 12 years and I don't know who, including the government apparatus, has implemented as many measures as Air Canada has.

Now, I'm not telling you that we are 100% perfect, but the measures... If somebody has any other suggestions to make, such as that of the gentleman earlier, they would be welcome. They are perhaps measures that we never thought of. But I don't know of many other regulated institutions who can boast of having a program with as many measures.

The Joint Chair (Senator Shirley Maheu): Thank you Ms. Perreault-Ieraci.

Mr. Godin.

Mr. Yvon Godin: You say that if somebody comes to the counter and if the staff person at the counter does not speak their language, you ask another person to come and assist. I don't want to sound like a broken record, but it is always francophones who must make this type of request and who have to bother the client at the next wicket, the one who is being served. I find that unacceptable. I have to state that categorically.

[English]

It's always the francophone, and I don't understand. You go there, and the other ones come in and give me the information I need, and then the other client is looking at me saying, I was getting services and you're taking my service away. It's always the francophone it happens to. I would come in very fast with some questions. I don't want to take much time to see if the questions are important or not.

[Translation]

That is one of my comments; I find it truly unacceptable.

Here is another comment. Is the training that is offered to employees, for example flight attendants, offered in French and in English or just in English? I have the impression, and information is supposed to be coming to me by mail, that the course is only given in English. One has to be bilingual to be able to take the course, but the course is only given in English.

In case of an emergency, when a plane is in an emergency descent situation, there are no longer any cassettes. The instructions in case of emergency,

[English]

straighten your seat and all of that,

[Translation]

are in English only. That is the information that I have and I will be able to substantiate that later on.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: If it is possible, Madam Chair, I would like to answer this question now otherwise I'll forget it.

The Joint Chair (Senator Shirley Maheu): Very well.

• 1715

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: You are referring to the training given to flight attendants. I can tell you that there are classes in English and classes in French. Flight attendants spend eight weeks in training before their first flight, and there are some classes which are given entirely in French and some classes which are given entirely in English.

Mr. Yvon Godin: And in what language is the course on emergency measures provided?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: In the French classes, everything is given in French, including instructions on how to deal with emergency situations.

Mr. Yvon Godin: What is supposed to be said to clients in both official languages aboard an aircraft where both languages should be spoken.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: Yes, absolutely.

Mr. Yvon Godin: What does “AC flight” mean?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: A flight managed by Air Canada or one of its regional carriers.

Mr. Yvon Godin: Therefore "AC flight" means an Air Canada flight. Very well, then. So, flight Air Canada 1336 at 2:35 p.m. on May 4, 2001 was an Air Canada flight which provided me service in English and which was supposed to have provided services in both official languages since July of 2000. So there is no difference. Despite all the efforts that you have made, the law was broken on this flight. Would you not agree with me?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: I would agree with you that since July of 2000 the legislation requires... That was probably an Air Nova or Air Ontario flight. As soon as it is a four-digit flight number, it is no longer an Air Canada flight. It is a flight on a regional carrier.

Mr. Yvon Godin: Here's the last question that is truly easy. You have received 50 complaints dealing with language. How many complaints came from anglophones?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: The complaints that we received from anglophones are complaints as to the quality of language in general. There is a number, which I do not have with me, but if you want me to tell you that there are hardly any complaints from anglophones, I would say that there are hardly any complaints from anglophones as to a lack of services in English.

Mr. Yvon Godin: The complaints deal with the fact that English is not spoken well enough.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: Yes.

Mr. Yvon Godin: Thank you.

The Joint Chair (Senator Shirley Maheu): Senator Gauthier.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: I have two small questions to ask.

At Air Canada and its affiliates, how many employees can work in both official languages? You can send the numbers to me later on if you wish.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: Very well, that is what we will do. I would not want to mislead you.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: Here is my second question.

Ms. Diana Monnet of Treasury Board appeared before us recently. She told us that the Official Languages Act took precedence in your negotiations with your employees. Would you agree with that?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: I certainly respect Ms. Monnet's opinion. As I am neither a lawyer nor a constitutional expert, I am not in any position to take a stand on the issue. What I do know, is that Air Canada is subject to the Official Languages Act and that Air Canada also has collective agreements that it must uphold. I think that everyone around the table realizes that a collective agreement cannot be broken during the life of the contract. Therefore, for several years now, and more specifically today, given the integration of all the unionized staff from all of these companies, we are faced with the challenge of reconciling all of our obligations.

Sen. Jean-Robert Gauthier: Madam Monnet assured us that the legislation took precedence. She was not giving us her opinion, but rather an assurance.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: I cannot give you that guarantee. We are juggling the two and trying to respect both as best as we can.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: You could ask your vice-presidents or someone else to answer the question. It is important.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: Yes, I...

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: Does Air Canada consider that the Official Languages Act takes precedence in terms of... [Editor's Note: Inaudible] Thank you.

The Joint Chair (Senator Shirley Maheu): Senator Beaudoin.

Senator Gérald Beaudoin: My question is about competition. Your argument impressed me, because obviously, the other air carriers are not required to comply with the Official Languages Act.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: No.

Senator Gérald Beaudoin: But you are required to do so, because we have a federal act in this area, which is imperative.

• 1720

I would like to know how you can succeed, economically speaking. It is something you cannot ignore, because a law is a law, and on the other hand, you have rivals who are quite large. Do you have a specific budget for linguistic issues and compliance with the Official Languages Act? I understood that my colleague Jean-Robert Gauthier would like to see the figures. For example, he wanted to know how much it costs to comply with the Official Languages Act. You are going to provide us with that document. It interests me, because it is an obligation you are fulfilling. That is clear.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: I can tell you today that yes, of course there is a budget. There is a budget for language instruction. Our linguistic obligations are covered from several areas. There is a budget for language instruction. There is a huge budget for the linguistic testing we do. We retest thousands and thousands of employees each year. So there is a budget for that. There are our salaries. In all Canadian airports and on all flight service bases in Canada, there are linguistic coordinators who take care of putting in place what is necessary, who help us respond to complaints when there are any, and who help us remedy the shortcomings when there are complaints.

You can add all of that together and it will give you the budget. There is not a separate budget item for bilingualism, but all of these different budget items include money that is allocated to bilingualism. For several years, Air Canada has dealt with this expense whereas Air Canada's competitors are not subject to the same obligations.

Senator Gérald Beaudoin: You obviously have competitors. Your rivals also have languages they must respect. Don't they? At Air France, they speak French, and probably English in America, or Spanish.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: Excuse me. I was thinking specifically about Canadian competition. The other carriers offering service in Canada do not face the same linguistic, commercial or legal obligations.

Senator Gérald Beaudoin: Yes, but on the other hand, you had to... Canadian was nevertheless a major air carrier, and you incorporated the company. You also assimilated it, if I may put it that way. You did the same thing in the case of the regional carriers. It required a huge amount of money, and I imagine, a lot of time. That may be why you say that you are trying to set an objective to make service bilingual.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: I can tell you that at present, there are an awful lot of people with the regional carriers who are responsible for satisfying linguistic obligations as quickly as possible.

Senator Gérald Beaudoin: It has to be fair though.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: Thank you.

The Joint Chair (Senator Shirley Maheu): Thank you, Senator.

Ms. Perreault, I would like to hear your comment again. When we talk about the famous 5%, where numbers warrant, I get angry. I am far from being satisfied with this famous section in the act. You have two years left to meet the obligation, in the case of Canadian, throughout the country.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: Flights by Canadian that are operated on the same lines as Air Canada must already offer bilingual service. The government had set aside three years to make service bilingual at Canadian, in accordance with certain criteria. They had to remain, they had to have a specific status.

The Joint Chair (Senator Shirley Maheu): What do you plan to do to achieve 100% in the long run? Will it be rigid? Will you count the passengers who go through the airport on a day where there are no francophones?

• 1725

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: Allow me to clarify something, Madam Chair. The airports are not subject to the 5%. The airports were determined by Transport Canada. About 12 years ago, Transport Canada determined which airports constituted airports where numbers were high. That is not the 5%.

The Joint Chair (Senator Shirley Maheu): I am sorry. I did not express myself clearly. Where do you do the count? On the planes?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: On the flights.

The Joint Chair (Senator Shirley Maheu): On the flights.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: Yes, on the flights.

The Joint Chair (Senator Shirley Maheu): Okay. So, on a day where there are not many francophones and it drops to 2%, you are not required to have someone bilingual on the flight. Is that correct?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: I want to reassure you in that regard, Madam Chair.

The poll was conducted by a serious company, Angus Reid, which conducted the poll using tested methodology. The poll was conducted over three periods of time. It is conducted over the period of one year, as Treasury Board required. It is conducted at peak times and at non-peak times. According to the methodology used and Treasury Board, these three periods are considered sufficient to insure, as you said, that we do not use a day where there is no one or everyone. So the results of this poll are absolutely clear.

The Joint Chair (Senator Shirley Maheu): If, professionally speaking, you end up at 3 or 4%, what would you do in the long term?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: As I said earlier in my remarks, in the long term, our objective is to do with everyone at Air Canada what Air Canada did for itself, when the results of the Air Canada poll came out 10 years ago and up to the arrival of Bill C- 26, and by that I mean having bilingual agents on all flights, regardless of whether there are 5% or not. That is our objective in the long term and probably in the medium term, but it will certainly not be done tomorrow morning. That is our objective.

It does not make sense—Mr. Bellemare talked about common sense—for a passenger who leaves western Canada and travels into an area where numbers warrant service in French and where service in French is offered, to no longer receive this service after having taken a connecting flight. Nor does it make sense for him to be told, when he asks to be served in French, that the company is sorry, but because there were not 5% of francophones the day the poll was conducted, service in French is not offered on this segment of the trip. He takes another connecting flight and ends up in a sector where 5% of passengers are francophones. There, he is offered service in French. Commercially speaking, that is untenable anyway.

Air Canada had, therefore, adopted the practice of putting bilingual attendants everywhere, to ensure that there was seamless service between Halifax and Vancouver, for example. If you had to change planes three times, you were guaranteed bilingual service on the three flights.

The Joint Chair (Senator Shirley Maheu): Thank you.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: You are welcome.

The Joint Chair (Senator Shirley Maheu): Senator Prud'homme, the floor is yours.

Senator Marcel Prud'homme (La Salle, Ind.): Thank you. I did not want to take advantage of your patience. The Senate was sitting and a few individuals were missing.

I would like to bring one comment to your attention. For 30 years, I represented a Montreal riding that was extremely multi-cultural, where it was not uncommon to find people who spoke three or four languages. My friend, the senator, had the neighbouring riding and this was true there too.

These people have told me that they would really like to work at Air Canada. For reasons that I do not understand—I am not making any accusations, simply a comment which I would like you to think about—according to your employment methods, it would appear that—

I think that today... When I look at young people, I really like them. Whether they be unilingual French or English and they show up at Air Canada as unilinguals... By the way, you will not find many unilingual francophones, let's be honest. It is not because I am sitting on this side... I do not want to be confused with the others.

Voices: Oh, oh!

Senator Marcel Prud'homme: That would not bother me either, but—

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: We have just had a member of Parliament and a senator.

A voice: That is good.

Senator Marcel Prud'homme: You need to understand that it was very frustrating for this woman, when she was a member of Parliament, and for me to have to answer that because, every time I tried to get an answer, I would not get one.

Often jobs are earmarked for young people. There are some people who, for the glory of Air Canada and Canada... We talk about the policy on multiculturalism, we encourage multiculturalism.

• 1730

It is no secret, I am a French-Canadian nationalist from Quebec. That is clear. I am saying this everywhere, and soon I will be saying it even louder. But I speak English. It did not cost the State anything, because I learned English while working here, quietly. I still speak it poorly. But I know that, in Canada, there is a pool of young people who are encouraged by Canadian policy to preserve their cultural heritage. They speak French, English and Armenian. There are schools in Montreal. You know, the rest of Canada does not have anything to teach us. In Montreal, we have Armenian schools. There are Arabic schools, Greek schools, such as the Socrates school, for which I am an advocate. Having graduate students who speak three languages is something that, in my opinion, is specific to Quebec. I would hope, however, that others spread the message outside of Montreal. These people speak only one language. Our debate will focus on this issue.

My only desire, Madam, is that you deliver the message of an old man who has been thinking about this issue forever, who is asking questions and who does not understand. I take the plane. I can still control myself, but sometimes I am tired. I have been taking the plane for 38 years, ever since I have been a member of Parliament. When people tell me,

[English]

I'm sorry, I don't speak French.

[Translation]

I answer,

[English]

don't be sorry, just learn it.

[Translation]

At times, they are a bit more brutal. At such times, I get annoyed, but I am able to answer.

I would simply like to be able to be a serious participant in this committee, if you want to give me the opportunity. Since I am an independent, I am not entitled to be part of the committee, but in the Senate, we have the right to speak.

Pay attention to what I have just said. Look ahead and prepare for the future. We have a lot of young people. Today Air Canada could tap into these extraordinary pools and not have to send people to language schools.

That is all. I have wanted to make this comment for a long time. I've taken this opportunity to do so. I am pleased that I arrived on time. I do not want to be unpleasant to you, I simply want to discuss things with you and my colleagues.

The Joint Chair (Senator Shirley Maheu): That would cut costs.

Mr. Yvon Godin: [Editor's Note: Inaudible]

The Joint Chair (Senator Shirley Maheu): They are everywhere.

Senator Marcel Prud'homme: There is a wonderful pool of people in New Brunswick, for instance, in Bathurst.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: I agree with you that there is a wonderful pool. I am especially aware of this situation since for many years I was involved in recruiting, particularly the recruiting of flight attendants and airport personnel.

One of Air Canada's criteria is to give priority to applicants who speak several languages. Earlier, I explained that we do not hire unilingual personnel and an applicant who speaks several languages will certainly have an additional asset compared to someone who speaks only two languages.

You're right, these pools do exist. I would simply like to clarify that these pools are becoming smaller and smaller. We have hired a tremendous number of people from these pools and we are not alone. Companies that manage, for example, call centres also use personnel who speak several languages. We are finding it increasingly harder to find applicants. You will understand that language is not the only criteria in the hiring process. We are finding it harder and harder to find applicants interested in working at Air Canada, either as flight attendants or passenger agents.

Mr. Yvon Godin: I would like to say one final thing, make a comment.

The Joint Chair (Senator Shirley Maheu): All right.

Mr. Yvon Godin: I want to make sure that my comment is put on the record. The member of Parliament Gérard Binet, who is new to the committee, talked at great length about competition and the private sector. We must remember how Air Canada came about.

Air Canada was a carrier that belonged to the government, that was part of the public sector. The company was sold by my predecessor, Doug Young, who was very proud of what he had done. The sale was made under one condition: Air Canada was to remain bilingual. That had nothing to do with competition or money. Air Canada was a public carrier that the private sector was very ready to buy, along with everything else that it entailed. I want to be sure that this is clear.

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Mr. Gérard Binet: Very well, Mr. Godin.

Mr. Yvon Godin: Thank you very much.

The Joint Chair (Senator Shirley Maheu): Thank you very much, Mr. Markey, Ms. Perreault and Ms. Dugas for your patience and for your time.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: It was a pleasure, Madam.

The Joint Chair (Senator Shirley Maheu): You spent nearly two hours being grilled, as we say.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: Thank you for having invited us.

The Joint Chair (Senator Shirley Maheu): Thank you, sir, and goodbye.

The meeting is adjourned.