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37th PARLIAMENT, 1st SESSION

Standing Joint Committee on Official Languages

EVIDENCE

CONTENTS

Monday, June 17, 2002

1530

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger (Ottawa—Vanier, Lib.))

Mr. Giuliano Zaccardelli (Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police)

1535

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger)

Mr. Reid

1540

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Mr. Scott Reid

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Mr. Scott Reid

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Mr. Scott Reid

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Mr. Scott Reid

1545

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Mr. Scott Reid

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger)

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier (Ontario, Lib.)

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

The Joint Chair

Mr. André Bérubé (Manager, Official Languages, Policy Centre, Royal Canadian Mounted Police)

1550

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier

Mr. André Bérubé

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau (Repentigny, BQ)

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

1555

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

1600

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

The Joint Chair

Ms. Yolande Thibeault

Mr. André Bérubé

Ms. Yolande Thibeault

Mr. André Bérubé

Ms. Yolande Thibeault

Mr. André Bérubé

Ms. Yolande Thibeault

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Ms. Yolande Thibeault

1605

The Joint Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP)

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Mr. Yvon Godin

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Mr. Yvon Godin

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Mr. Yvon Godin

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Mr. Yvon Godin

Mr. André Bérubé

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Mr. Yvon Godin

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Mr. Yvon Godin

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Mr. Yvon Godin

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Mr. Yvon Godin

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Mr. Yvon Godin

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Mr. Yvon Godin

1610

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Mr. Yvon Godin

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Mr. Yvon Godin

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Mr. Yvon Godin

The Joint Chair

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

The Joint Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

The Joint Chair

Senator Viola Léger (New Brunswick, Lib.)

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Senator Viola Léger

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Mr. André Bérubé

Senator Viola Léger

1615

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Senator Viola Léger

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Senator Viola Léger

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Senator Viola Léger

The Joint Chair

Senator Gérald Beaudoin (Rigaud, PC)

1620

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Senator Gérald Beaudoin

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Senator Gérald Beaudoin

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Senator Gérald Beaudoin

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Senator Gérald Beaudoin

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Senator Gérald Beaudoin

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Senator Gérald Beaudoin

1625

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Senator Gérald Beaudoin

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

The Joint Chair

Senator Gérald Beaudoin

The Joint Chair

Mr. Gérard Binet (Frontenac—Mégantic, Lib.)

The Joint Chair

Mr. Gérard Binet

Mr. André Bérubé

Mr. Gérard Binet

Chief Superintendent Yves Bouchard (Royal Canadian Mounted Police)

Mr. Gérard Binet

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Mr. Gérard Binet

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Mr. André Bérubé

1630

Mr. Gérard Binet

Mr. André Bérubé

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger)

Mr. André Bérubé

Mr. Gérard Binet

Mr. André Bérubé

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

The Joint Chair

Mr. Gérard Binet

C/Supt Yves Bouchard

1635

The Joint Chair

Mr. Jeannot Castonguay (Madawaska—Restigouche, Lib.)

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Mr. Jeannot Castonguay

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

1640

Mr. Jeannot Castonguay

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Mr. André Bérubé

Mr. Jeannot Castonguay

Mr. André Bérubé

Mr. Jeannot Castonguay

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Mr. Jeannot Castonguay

The Joint Chair

C/Supt Yves Bouchard

The Joint Chair

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

1645

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Mr. André Bérubé

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger)

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier

1650

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier

Mr. André Bérubé

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier

Mr. André Bérubé

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier

Mr. André Bérubé

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier

Mr. André Bérubé

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier

Mr. André Bérubé

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger)

Mr. Yvon Godin

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Mr. Yvon Godin

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Mr. Yvon Godin

1655

Mr. André Bérubé

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Mr. Yvon Godin

Mr. André Bérubé

Mr. Yvon Godin

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Mr. Yvon Godin

C/Supt Yves Bouchard

The Joint Chair

1700

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Mr. Yvon Godin

The Joint Chair

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

The Joint Chair

Mr. André Bérubé

The Joint Chair

Mr. André Bérubé

1705

The Joint Chair

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

The Joint Chair

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

The Joint Chair

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

The Joint Chair

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

The Joint Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

The Joint Chair

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier

1710

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

The Joint Chair

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli

The Joint Chair

1715

The Joint Chair

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

The Joint Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin

The Joint Chair

Ms. Yolande Thibeault

The Joint Chair

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier

The Joint Chair

1720

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier

The Joint Chair

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier

The Joint Chair

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier

Mr. Mauril Bélanger

Senator Gérald Beaudoin

The Joint Chair

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier

1725

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger)

Mr. Yvon Godin

The Joint Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin

The Joint Chair

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier

The Joint Chair

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

The Joint Chair

CANADA

Standing Joint Committee on Official Languages

NUMBER 045

1st SESSION

37th PARLIAMENT

EVIDENCE

Monday, June 17, 2002

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

¹ (1530)

[Translation]

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger (Ottawa—Vanier, Lib.)): Mr. Zaccardelli, Commissioner of the RCMP, Messrs. Bouchard and Bérubé, we welcome you to the Standing Joint Committee on Official Languages.

Some time ago, we began to take a look at certain departments and agencies with regard to Part VII of the Official Languages Act, but that does not prevent us from looking at other agencies in order to consider the question. We had hoped to invite you for some time, and we thank you for accepting our invitation.

Mr. Zaccardelli, I believe I understand that you have an appointment at 5:15 p.m. We understand that and we accept it. So we are going to proceed fairly quickly as a result.

I would like to emphasize to committee members that there are a few items that we can discuss briefly after Mr. Zaccardelli leaves. They are: the CBC's refusal to come back and see us, the fact that the National Hockey League has agreed to come and see us and the matter of a report which is still outstanding. So we can at least discuss those three items.

We will begin with your testimony, Mr. Zaccardelli. The floor is yours.

Mr. Giuliano Zaccardelli (Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police): Thank you, Mr. Bélanger. It is a pleasure for me to be here with you today to answer your questions on official languages at the RCMP for 2001-2002.

The RCMP has submitted a document to you through the committee's clerks. It is entitled “Annual Report on Official Languages 2001-2002”.

[English]

The RCMP enforces laws throughout Canada that are made by, or under the authority of, the Canadian Parliament. Under the terms of policing agreements, it also provides police services to all provinces--except Ontario, Quebec, Yukon, Nunavut, and the Northwest Territories--and under separate municipal policing agreements to 199 municipalities.

The Official Languages Act, and the regulations on service to the public, enable the RCMP to identify the offices and detachments that have the obligation to provide service to the public in both official languages.

[Translation]

The linguistic obligations of those offices and detachments are then approved by the Treasury Board Secretariat, which maintains a list of the RCMP offices and detachments which have service to the public obligations in the Burolis data base. The last Burolis report dated April 16, 2002 states that there are 758 RCMP service points. Of that number, 204, that is 27 percent, are required to provide services to the public in both official languages.

[English]

It is estimated that the RCMP conducts at least 15 million transactions each year with members of the public, either on the phone or in person. The RCMP's official languages program rests on three pillars. The first pillar is service to the public. The RCMP has the obligation to actively offer, and provide, services to the public in both official languages in our 204 offices and points of service designated bilingual. On the other hand, the public has the corresponding right to communicate with, and receive, services in the official language of their choice from these same 204 offices. In 2001-02, 13 complaints, relating to service to the public, were lodged against the RCMP--13 complaints compared to over 15 million interactions.

Let me assure you that the RCMP is cooperating with the Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages towards a resolution of each of these complaints. The senior management at the RCMP wants to create an organizational culture firmly grounded on the provision of bilingual services, at all times in all designated detachments and offices.

¹ (1535)

[Translation]

Our second pillar is language of work.

The RCMP is working to establish a work place conducive to the effective use of both official languages in the National Capital Region and in the designated bilingual regions for language of work purposes. Our annual report confirms that the RCMP has excellent bilingual capability in senior management and supervision in those regions. In the National Capital Region, 91 percent of those positions, 80 percent of officer positions and 72 percent of non-commissioned officer positions are bilingual. Eighty-eight of those bilingual positions require superior oral skills. As for the officers, 89 percent of bilingual positions require level CBC in both official languages. In the circumstances, I would add that all EX class positions or equivalent are bilingual and require level CBC in both official languages.

During the 2002-2003 fiscal year, the RCMP intends to emphasize two essential components of the implementation of the language of work objective: first, the importance of language requirements among senior executives by March 2003 and, second, the availability of automated systems, commonly used and general software in both official languages in the bilingual regions.

[English]

The last pillar is to ensure equitable participation. To this end, the RCMP is committed to ensuring that English- and French-speaking Canadians enjoy equal opportunities for advancement.

The statistics provided in the annual review confirm that the level of participation of the two official language communities of Canada in the RCMP tend to reflect their presence in the general population. We must, of course, bear in mind that the mandate of the RCMP, its clientele, and the location of its 753 offices throughout Canada are in conformity with part VI of the act.

In April 2002 the RCMP workforce was composed of 80% anglophones and 20% francophones. Francophones make up 92% of the workforce of our division in the province of Quebec, C division.

Some shortcomings in our current situation were brought to my attention, such as the home pages of divisional websites or provincial websites. The RCMP is taking measures to review the home pages of the provincial websites to ensure that all of the sites for specific detachments and programs respect the official languages policy and guidelines of the Treasury Board. We shall also implement a system to ensure that all submissions to the Treasury Board respect the provisions of the Official Languages Act.

These are some of the steps we are taking towards improving and respecting the government's official language policy.

Thank you for listening to my brief comments. I'm now available to answer your questions.

[Translation]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm now ready to answer your questions.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Thank you very much.

Mr. Reid, seven minutes if you wish.

[English]

Mr. Scott Reid (Lanark—Carleton, Canadian Alliance): Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and Commissioner, for appearing before us today.

Commissioner, I appreciate the numbers that you've put together with regard to the participation of francophones and anglophones in the RCMP. However, it strikes me that the real inequity that exists in Canada today is not between the participation rates of francophones and anglophones in either the RCMP, the military, or the public service, but rather the inequity that exists between the jobs available for unilingual versus bilingual persons--whether unilingual francophones or unilingual anglophones.

But your figures don't provide any breakdown as to whether individuals were unilingual or bilingual at the point at which they were hired to enter into the workforce. You're not alone in this, as the government doesn't collect figures this way, either. I would suspect, given the number of English-essential positions, that there are a fair number of unilingual anglophones who come in.

I wonder if any unilingual francophones were accepted by the RCMP. If so, what percentage of total francophone hirings would they be? This is of particular importance given the fact that over 50% of francophones in Quebec do not know how to speak English.

¹ (1540)

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: To answer the first part of your question, yes, we do hire unilingual francophones. They have access to the same training as anglophones when they go to our academy in Regina. As a matter of fact, we just recently graduated a troop here in Regina and we have some more who are on their way.

I don't know the specific numbers of unilingual francophones we have actually hired. I have a staff with me so, as I speak, I hope maybe they'll be able to provide me with some information. The fact is, unilingual anglophones and unilingual francophones apply and they are accepted in the RCMP. Within that mix we have to ensure that we have a sufficient number of bilingual people to comply with the Official Languages Act and the policies that guide us, which come from Treasury Board.

We believe we are complying very well with those policies. We're not perfect. As I mentioned, there are a number of areas where we have to improve--our websites in particular. In some of our informatics--our technology area--we have some very serious concerns.

We also have a number of positions right here in the national capital region that are designated at a certain level bilingual. There are a few people who have a bilingual capacity but are not meeting it to the level that is required. We're putting a program into place, as I said in my opening comments, to ensure that these people have the training to meet that requirement.

Mr. Scott Reid: I don't want to put you on the spot in this regard, but if it's possible, I'd very much appreciate it if your staff could dig up the information to answer that question and perhaps provide it in a written form to the committee when it's available.

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: Yes, we just graduated a troop of 30 unilingual francophone candidates, but that doesn't answer your specific question of how many unilingual francophones we've recruited. Is that your specific question?

Mr. Scott Reid: That's right, yes.

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: All right. I will try to get that.

Mr. Scott Reid: That's much appreciated.

I just want to ask this as well. How much in the way of financial resources is devoted to language training for individuals who come in and who are not meeting with the dual language requirements of the force?

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: The training that takes place is if somebody is going into a position, you have level one and level two. We send people for training who require that linguistic capability. Again, francophones and anglophones have access to that training.

The training depends on their.... Some people are tested and they don't have the capacity to learn a second language, for example, but most of them do. There's the odd one who can't. Of those who do, some of them may only need three months. Some of them may only need nine months. Some of them may need a little bit longer. It depends on the level and their capacity to learn and how much previous knowledge of the language they have. It really depends on that. We would invest up to nine months, up to a year, depending on the need.

I've been given some specific information. Last year we spent $3.1 million in terms of training people to ensure they have a linguistic capacity.

Mr. Scott Reid: I have one last question. The numbers, in terms of the percentage of the workforce that works in English and works in French and the number of people who are of French and English linguistic origin, are not actually, of course, proportionate to the numbers for Canada as a whole. I'm wondering if that is primarily the result of the fact that the RCMP provides provincial policing services in some provinces but not in Quebec and Ontario. Is that the reason, essentially, for that?

¹ (1545)

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: It's a little bit more complex than that. I think 67% of our human resources are Manitoba west, but there's an allotment of people we recruit from each province.

Again, the objective here is to comply with Treasury Board policy. The Official Languages Act says there are so many positions, or posts, or detachment areas, that are bilingual. What I have to do is make sure I have sufficient people who can meet those needs--the bilingual capacity to serve the public. Then I also have to ensure that the unilingual people have equal access to work in the RCMP. We're always balancing that, and that's what we try to do.

Mr. Scott Reid: Thank you very much.

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: You're welcome, sir.

[Translation]

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Senator Gauthier.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier (Ontario, Lib.): Hello, Mr. Zaccardelli.

It would be interesting to know how many unilingual Francophones you have at the RCMP.

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: I don't have the exact number.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: Please find it and send it to Mr. Reid. I would be surprised if there's one.

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: We have positions that are designated unilingual Francophone.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: Mr. Zaccardelli, you're not getting very good press in the Francophone community, and you know it. I'll read you some of the newspaper and radio headlines: “Acadian Faith with RCMP Headed to Court”.

That was in the Saint John Times Globe. At CBAF, Moncton: “RCMP Drags Heels on French-Language Services”. In L'Acadie Nouvelle: “Demands Causing a Stir!”. In the Saint John Times Globe: “Acadians Asking for too Much?”. In L'Acadie Nouvelle, in June 2001: “RCMP an Outlaw”. And here's a headline for the police! At CBA-AM in Moncton: “RCMP Not Following Official Languages Act”.

And I could continue; I have a whole list.

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: Excuse me, Senator Gauthier, if you have a question, I'll answer it, but if you want me to comment on the points you've raised, I'm ready to do that as well. I can talk about the province of New Brunswick, if you wish.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: There were two reports on the investigation by the Commissioner of Official Languages into the RCMP's conduct in New Brunswick, in the Maritimes: one in May 2000 and the other in May 2001. In the 2001 report, the Commissioner states that you were to submit a plan for all the Maritime provinces to the Commissioner. As far as I know, she has not yet received it, and you were to submit it before the end of August 2001. We are almost at the end of June 2002.

Is that plan coming?

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: Mr. Gauthier, I can tell you that Ms. Adam's office is satisfied with what we have done. They accepted our replies to their recommendations. There is no concern on the part of Ms. Adam's office concerning the service we provide in the province of New Brunswick today. I understand perfectly well that a number of questions have been raised, but we worked with the Office of the Commissioner of the Official Languages and we found some solutions. When questions are raised, with work with them. That's what we've done.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: But the specific plan was not submitted to the Commissioner of Official Languages, as requested by the Commissioner in her report. The Commissioner asked the RCMP to submit a specific language training plan for the provinces apart from New Brunswick by the end of July 2001.

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: Mr. Chairman, I believe Mr. Bérubé has more specific information on the question raised by Mr. Gauthier.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Of course, Mr. Zaccardelli. I will give Mr. Bérubé the floor.

I would like to say two things, with your permission. When you send information, please send it to the committee clerk so that we can distribute it to everyone.

Mr. André Bérubé (Manager, Official Languages, Policy Centre, Royal Canadian Mounted Police): The Commissioner of Official Languages had asked to review an approach. We tried to find a universal approach to the linguistic identification of positions for New Brunswick. Following her investigation, she recommended that we adopt a plan. The plan that we developed, and which was presented to Ms. Adam and her officers, states that we will now comply with the Treasury Board policies and the standards of the Public Service Commission and that every manager will identify the language requirements of his or her position.

¹ (1550)

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: That's enough for me, because I don't have very much time. I have seven minutes to question you. If you talk for two minutes, I can't ask you any questions. But I have a number of questions to ask you.

Mr. Zaccardelli, in your 2001-2002 annual report on official languages, the pages and paragraphs are not numbered, but we can see that a consultant will be conducting an audit of automated systems in the bilingual regions in 2002-2003.

Has that begun?

Mr. André Bérubé: We are negotiating a contract with Finance. We expect the audit will be conducted by early July.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: It's time you thought about it because the act has required it since 1991. Under subsection 36(1), all federal institutions must ensure that all work instruments are in both official languages. It's now 2002. It is time the RCMP complied.

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: I agree with you. I'm not satisfied with that.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: I saw you nod as if to say yes, and I'm pleased with that. That's going to be done very soon.

I'm raising the question of training. In an article in Le Droit on May 24, it was reported that the training services the RCMP has offered to the tactical intervention group since the events of September 11 in New York were in English only. Gatineau police decided not to do it. You have no programs to offer in French. So that's suspended. The RCMP said that it needed time to have them translated.

Can you explain to me how it is that you did not have a national program available for police departments?

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: Mr. Gauthier, I was embarrassed when I learned that. When I was informed of the situation, I ordered that the entire training program be translated so that it would be available in both languages.

It's unfortunate because we have police officers who work in the field. They were quite capable of providing training in both languages, but the material was not translated. When I learned about it, I was embarrassed by the incident and I took measures to correct the situation.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: The President of the Gatineau Police Officers Union, Michel Régimbald, said it was unacceptable. You agree with him that it is unacceptable that the federal police force, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, did not have its programs in the two official languages of this country. In a critical situation, it seems to me that the training of our police officers is essential.

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: I agree with you, Mr. Gauthier.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: Do I still have time?

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): No.

Mr. Sauvageau.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau (Repentigny, BQ): Hello, sirs, and welcome.

It's true it would be very interesting to find out the number of unilingual Francophones at the RCMP and how many of that number might have taken the course Senator Gauthier referred to which was available in English only. If you offer courses in English only and you hire people who are unilingual Francophones, it seems to me that there's a paradox, a problem.

In your remarks and in your annual report, you state that 204 of the 753 RCMP service points are required to provide services to the public in both official languages.

Of the 204 service points required to provide services in both official languages, how many, in your view, meet that obligation?

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: In my view, they're all supposed to meet it.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: They are all supposed to meet that obligation.

¹ (1555)

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: Yes.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Do you hire people who are not bilingual for designated bilingual positions and who will take training to become bilingual in short order? Are there people who fill bilingual positions but do not meet bilingual criteria?

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: There are people in positions for all kinds of reasons. For example, if someone has access to a position and has not received language training, we'll send him or her for six or nine months of training.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: All right.

In the National Capital Region, you say there are 634 incumbents of bilingual positions in central services and that 77 percent of that number meet bilingual requirements. So, by arithmetic deduction, 23 percent do not meet bilingual requirements. Will that 23 percent receive training?

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: No. That's not exactly how it works. Providing service in a position does not mean that every person in the position must be bilingual. It's important to know that.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: But you say in your document that 834 incumbents of bilingual positions--incumbents are people--provide bilingual services to their colleagues in both official languages and that 77 percent of those incumbents meet the requirements of their positions. So 23 percent of the incumbents do not meet the requirements of their positions.

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: Yes, that's correct.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Those people occupy designated bilingual positions; they are not bilingual, but receive training.

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: Yes, that's what I said in my comments. This year, one of our priorities will be to ensure that those people receive the necessary training.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Do you have a lot of police officers who were hired without taking a police officer course and who became police officers after being hired?

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: Excuse me. I don't understand your question.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: It seems to me that, when you occupy a bilingual position, you should be bilingual.

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: Yes, that's true.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: When you occupy a police officer position, you should first be a police officer. You don't first hire a person then give him training. It seems to me there's a slight problem here.

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: The Treasury Board policy provides for situations in which a person can be appointed to a position on condition that he or she takes language training after being hired.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: To solve these problems and complaints at the level of the Commissioner of Official Languages, if you hired a bilingual person to occupy a bilingual position, there would be less chance of there being a problem. Do you agree with that?

In your annual report, in the section entitled “Ontario - Management and Supervision”, you say that 30 percent of non-commissioned officers have level CBC. In that same section, you state that there are 21 incumbents of bilingual positions and that 48 percent of that number meet the language requirements of their positions. As for central services, 53 percent of the 21 persons to occupy bilingual positions meet bilingual requirements. Half of those people who occupy bilingual positions do not meet the minimum criteria for those positions. Don't you think that percentage is a bit high?

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: Yes, you're right. We're working on that. I agree with you.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Since when has the RCMP been required to comply with the Official Languages Act? Lastly July or before that?

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: The RCMP has had to comply with it since it entered into effect. I agree with you.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: That's what I thought. I wanted you to confirm it for me.

In her 2000-2001 report, the Commissioner of Official Languages said that she had received 17 complaints concerning the RCMP. Earlier, you used a trick similar to that of Air Canada, which told us that the company had 30 million passengers, but that it had received only 13 complaints and that its performance was therefore good. If I asked you for the telephone number of the Commissioner of Official Languages because I wanted to file a complaint, you might have trouble finding it. There is no process or form for filing a complaint with the RCMP. The RCMP could make up the same story as Air Canada.

Despite the fact that only one person in one thousand who had a complaint to file actually filed it, the Commissioner received 17 complaints. Five of those were founded, three were not and nine were being heard or analyzed. Of those nine complaints, how many were founded?

º (1600)

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: I don't have the figures. Are you asking whether I'm satisfied with our performance in both official languages? I'm definitely not satisfied. As I've already said, I am going to work to ensure that we comply with the Official Languages Act 100 percent. That's what I'm going to do.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: When 50 percent of the people who work do not meet bilingual criteria, do you think that sends a positive signal that supports what you just said, that is that you are going to ensure that the RCMP complies with the Official Languages Act? Instead of telling us you're going to work on that, I would like you to tell us what you're going to do in concrete terms so that the figures concerning the RCMP are more positive.

Ms. Robillard, the Treasury Board President, told us that there was a deadline for non-bilingual officials who hold designated bilingual positions. When that deadline comes, we'll see what's going to happen. At the RCMP, do you have a deadline for those people? Do you tell them you want them to learn the official languages? If they don't do it, do you tell them at their retirement party that they should have done it? Have other incentives been put forward?

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: As I said in my speech and the answers to the questions put to me, I intend to comply with the act 100 percent. I'm not satisfied. If there are any people who occupy positions and who have not received the necessary language training, I am going to ensure they get it.

I'm not pleased with the current situation, but I can't correct it all of a sudden. We're working very closely with the people from the Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages. I'm thinking of the Province of New Brunswick, where we've made a lot of progress. I'm pleased to be here today, not to have been here a year and a half ago, because I believe that the questions would have been more difficult than they were today. But I'm not yet satisfied with the situation in New Brunswick. There is still work to do. If you want me to admit that the situation is not yet 100 percent, I'm ready to do so.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Thank you, Mr. Sauvageau.

I get the impression we're going to hear about New Brunswick in a few moments in any case, but first we have to go to Ms. Thibeault.

Ms. Yolande Thibeault (Saint-Lambert, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Hello, sirs.

We began by talking about language training, and you said you allocate $3.1 million to it a year. Is that correct?

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: Yes.

Ms. Yolande Thibeault: Can you tell me how many of your employees are currently in language training, if possible expressed as a percentage, which would be better for us, or at least for me, than in absolute figures.

Mr. André Bérubé: I can't tell you how many employees are currently in language training, but I can tell you that, in New Brunswick, there are 280 members of the RCMP taking development courses in French and English. In Orleans, French classes are being given to some 40 members of the tactical intervention and technical services group. The RCMP is restructuring the way it provides language training; we're putting much more emphasis on development courses in order to constitute a bilingual staff and shorten training periods following staffing. We could obtain the figures from the divisions to see how many individuals are on language courses. Some members are always in training.

Ms. Yolande Thibeault: What kind of encouragement do you give your staff? I was also wondering whether you encourage your employees, even those whose positions are not designated bilingual, to learn the second language they do not yet have.

Mr. André Bérubé: Surprisingly, it's the members who ask to take training. We don't need to encourage them because they know that all the executive positions at the RCMP require extensive knowledge of both official languages.

In New Brunswick, for example, at the Sussex detachment, 20 unilingual English employees are taking French courses because they want to have access to corporal, sergeant and, eventually, officer positions. They know they won't be promoted if they aren't bilingual.

Ms. Yolande Thibeault: You mention figures such as 40 and 21 here and there. As a percentage of RCMP staff, I don't find them very impressive.

Mr. André Bérubé: I'll give you figures on places for which we've come under criticism. We have figures for the country as a whole, but what I've prepared concerns New Brunswick.

Ms. Yolande Thibeault: In any case, I'm sure we can have access to those figures.

Thank you.

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: You're correct. I, for example, don't have the figures saying how many Anglophones in British Columbia are taking language training courses. I don't have those figures, but we can try to get them.

Ms. Yolande Thibeault: Please send them to the clerk along with the figures for my colleague Mr. Reid.

That's all right.

º (1605)

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Thank you, Ms. Thibeault.

Mr. Godin

Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP): Thank you, Commissioner, for appearing before the committee today with your team. Since we have little time, we're going to try to get to the point as quickly as possible.

I would like to know whether RCMP police officers in Quebec do routine patrolling.

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: That depends. Usually we don't do that.

Mr. Yvon Godin: I'm talking about routine patrolling, speeding and so on.

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: No, we don't do any, but we work at the borders.

Mr. Yvon Godin: So there's no contact between the RCMP and people who cross Quebec, such as Anglophones from Ontario who are going to Nova Scotia or vice versa. Quebec has no problem with the RCMP on the roads.

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: No, they don't work on the roads.

Mr. Yvon Godin: How many executives in Quebec speak French only?

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: All officers are bilingual.

Mr. Yvon Godin: In Quebec.

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: Most of our police officers in Quebec, approximately 92 percent, are Francophone. Officers who are executives are all bilingual.

Mr. Yvon Godin: All bilingual?

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: Yes.

Mr. Yvon Godin: Elsewhere in Canada, in Alberta, for example, how many senior executives are not bilingual?

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: There are some.

Mr. Yvon Godin: There are a lot. As you know, the SAANB in New Brunswick has instituted legal proceedings against the RCMP.

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: Yes.

Mr. Yvon Godin: The Société des Acadiens et Acadiennes du Nouveau-Brunswick is not satisfied with the service provided in New Brunswick.

You told Senator Gauthier earlier that the Commissioner of Official Languages was satisfied with your work. However, you were supposed to submit a report, but that has not been done, when are you going to submit that report, if you submit it?

Mr. André Bérubé: The study by the Commissioner of Official Languages is not complete. Today, two officers of the Commissioner of Official Languages are in Fredericton meeting the head of the criminal police. Tomorrow, they will be in Tracadie. The study and work are continuing. We are now in the phase in which the Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages is comparing the duties of a constable in an urban area, such as Moncton, to those of a constable in a rural area. They have chosen Caraquet, and we're working with them. They will be in Moncton a little later this week. The work with the Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages is continuing, and relations are excellent.

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: Would you allow me to make a comment? Mr. Godin, you mentioned the Société des Acadiens et Acadiennes du Nouveau-Brunswick. I believe you said there was a court proceedings against...

Mr. Yvon Godin: A court action.

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: That's true. You also said that they were not satisfied with our services. The two things are not related. The court action does not concern the service we provide; that's something else.

Mr. Yvon Godin: No, I'm sorry. It concerns language of service, not service to the public.

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: I'm not a lawyer, but I believe the action of the Société des Acadiens et Acadiennes du Nouveau-Brunswick concerns the fact that the Société wants New Brunswick's new act, which has just gone into effect, to apply to the RCMP. However, as you know, a provincial statute cannot apply to a federal agency. That's the question.

Mr. Yvon Godin: Why can't that act apply if Canada itself is a bilingual country? What percentage of Francophones is necessary for service to be provided in the regions? Is it five percent? Is it 20 percent?

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: We can give you the figures we have on the province of New Brunswick.

Mr. Yvon Godin: I would like you to send those figures to the Chairman.

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: Yes, we're going to send them to the Chairman through the clerk.

Mr. Yvon Godin: All right.

It's being said that the RCMP's language standards have been lowered even in New Brunswick.

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: Allow me to say that that's not true.

Mr. Yvon Godin: Are you saying it's not at all true or that it's not true?

º (1610)

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: Not at all. There was the Wilson report whose recommendations were not implemented. In fact, we even raised the linguistic levels of the members of the RCMP. Today, in New Brunswick, there are more members of the RCMP with level C than there were previously. We haven't lowered the language level.

Mr. Yvon Godin: A province like New Brunswick is considered bilingual. You say that, at the federal level, you aren't required to comply with the province's statute, but the province calls upon your services and pays for them. It's New Brunswick that pays you, but, since you are a federal agency, you say you aren't required to comply with the statutes of New Brunswick. In fact, you are virtually a provincial police force. Ontario has the OPP and Quebec the Sûreté du Québec. You represent the people of New Brunswick, and you say yourself that you aren't satisfied with the RCMP's performance. In fact, if you say you're not satisfied, you agree that the RCMP is violating the Official Languages Act. Your purpose isn't to violate the act, but to enforce it.

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: Mr. Godin, we're not violating the act. We comply with federal statutes, provincial statutes and municipal statutes. The Treasury Board is our employer, and we are a federal agency. The Supreme Court has ruled on this: the acts of the provinces cannot apply to a federal agency; they cannot apply to the RCMP. We comply with all statutes. In New Brunswick, more than 50 percent of our members are Francophone. I don't have the exact figures, but approximately 68 percent of our members are bilingual in the Province of New Brunswick. In fact, we exceed the Treasury Board requirements.

Mr. Yvon Godin: Mr. Chairman, New Brunswick's new Official Languages Act provides that a third party which provides services to the province must meet the requirements of the province's Official Languages Act.

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: Mr. Godin, unfortunately, as you said a moment ago, we are in court.

Mr. Yvon Godin: So, in fact, Mr. Chairman, we New Brunswickers...

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): I would like you to give Mr. Zaccardelli the opportunity to answer your first question. Then you will come back to wrap up.

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: Mr. Godin, as you mentioned a moment ago, we are now in court, and the lawyers are addressing this question. It's not that we don't want to comply with the provincial statutes, but we are guided by the Treasury Board's policy, which we must respect. The number of bilingual positions and the service we provide to the Francophone communities of New Brunswick meet all the Treasury Board requirements. That's the reality. We have just begun court proceedings. It is now for the court to decide. The court will tell us whether we must comply with that act. I don't make the laws, but I comply with them all.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): One final question, Mr. Godin.

Mr. Yvon Godin: That means that the people of New Brunswick, in Tracadie, Caraquet and Shippagan, have made a bad deal with the RCMP because it's hiding behind the Treasury Board requirements and says that it does not have to comply with the provincial act.

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: Mr. Godin, the vast majority of the members of the communities you've just mentioned are Francophone, and we know it perfectly well.

Mr. Yvon Godin: But not in Moncton.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): We'll continue in a second round if time permits.

Senator Léger.

Senator Viola Léger (New Brunswick, Lib.): Two persons in a row from New Brunswick!

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: I know New Brunswick a little because I worked there for four years.

Senator Viola Léger: I don't have any experience with individual things and so on.

I read elsewhere that you were having trouble because of aging translators. My question for the RCMP is this: the new ones you're hiring, who come from across Canada, are they increasingly bilingual?

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: May I ask Mr. Bérubé to answer?

Mr. André Bérubé: Yes, Madam, but there is nevertheless an enormous volume of translation that must be done internally or externally. At the present time, we have 33 translators, who are civilian members of the RCMP, and we have a lot of difficulty recruiting. We are not a centre of attraction for translators. There are a lot of translators in the federal Translation Bureau, which gives a translator better career opportunities than a small outfit of 33.

That's the problem.

Senator Viola Léger: In fact, I was asking you whether new police officers were increasingly bilingual. Anglophones speak French today. I hear them. They look for opportunities to practise their French. Am I dreaming when I think that young people who enter the RCMP are increasingly bilingual? You must hire a lot of bilingual people, don't you?

º (1615)

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: Yes, I agree 100 percent. In the past, as you know, the only people who were bilingual were Francophones. Now, we increasingly see Anglophones and Allophones like myself--I don't like that word--taking training courses on their own time and who are bilingual when they arrive at the RCMP.

Senator Viola Léger: I used to be a teacher and I know that young people have had seven to 10 years of French at school. All they're lacking is practice.

Let's come back to the RCMP. Those who have to learn French and get levels A, B or C have to apply for training. If they aren't in a Francophone environment or even in an office where French is spoken.. That's what's going to train them.

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: You're right. One of the things that was lacking most of the time was that Anglophones were sent to learn French for nine to 12 months, but were then sent back to Anglophone positions. It's not worth the trouble to invest in those people. Those are mistakes of the past which we're trying to correct.

The other thing is that RCMP members have rights. I can't force them to go work in Quebec. I try to convince them that it's worth the trouble to go stay there for a while, but sometimes...

Senator Viola Léger: At home in New Brunswick, it's the atmosphere... In any case, it's easier said than done, and I know it.

Do I have the time to ask another question?

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Yes.

Senator Viola Léger: A moment ago, someone from the committee asked when the RCMP would submit the plan. Isn't the paper you gave us the plan? Everything is written down: there is an executive summary, there's a description of weak points to be corrected which are subject to an undertaking. Your plan is prepared, isn't it? You were looking for a plan. It is done. That's your plan. You have seven points.

I want to say one final thing. I admit that, when I hear that a bilingual position is going to be given to a unilingual person and that that person is then going to be given French courses, it's a tough thing to hear. You call that staffing, and after that, there's training. You may not be bilingual today, but you will be in five years.

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: You raise a good point. Originally, there were a number of members who did not meet the requirements of their positions. Increasingly today, we have enough bilingual members. They are Anglophones who have learned French or Francophones. Not many people do not meet the language requirements of their positions today, and we're trying to reduce that number.

Senator Viola Léger: Thank you.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Senator Beaudoin.

Senator Gérald Beaudoin (Rigaud, PC) : I'm going to come back to the criminal law question. In our country, under the Official Languages Act and even under the Constitution, a person is entitled to a criminal trial in the language of his choice. And obviously police officers are bound by the provisions of the Criminal Code.

In New Brunswick, ultimately, you serve as a provincial police force and also enforce the criminal law. Every person is entitled to a criminal trial in his language. How do you manage in the case of police officers who are assigned to criminal trials? Are there standards that must be met in criminal law? Are those people bilingual? I ask you the question because New Brunswick is a special case. Of course, in Quebec, the problem does not arise because, even though the Criminal Code is federal, police officers are very often Francophone, which raises specific problems, I believe. In New Brunswick, there may be problems because you are the provincial police.

º (1620)

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: Senator Beaudoin, you're right. As you know, the province is responsible for the administration of justice.

Senator Gérald Beaudoin: Precisely. It is responsible for civil and criminal justice.

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: A person has a right to a trial in English or in French. If witnesses are unable to testify in the language of the accused, there is translation.

Senator Gérald Beaudoin: The person is entitled to an interpreter. The Charter of Rights and Freedoms solves the problem.

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: In situations where there is a Francophone who does not speak French--there are not many in the province of New Brunswick, but there are some--the person testifies in English and then there is the translation.

Senator Gérald Beaudoin: There's also the question of judges. Progress has been made in this regard because it used to be said that judges had to take reasonable measures to make themselves understood. Under the Criminal Code as applied by the Supreme Court, that's not enough. Police officers assigned to criminal law, which is federal, let's not forget, are required to understand French and to speak French when they explain the situation to a potential accused. That's normal in a bilingual country such as Canada.

Do you have any problems in this regard, or as to whether bilingual standards are met?

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: Most of the time, we meet bilingual standards. If I had a choice, I would like 100 percent of our employees to be fully bilingual, but the fact of the matter is different. We've made a lot of progress, but much still remains to be done. In British Columbia, where we have 25 percent of our strength, it is difficult to ensure that most people are bilingual. So when they arrive in the organization...

Senator Gérald Beaudoin: Perhaps I should put that question to the Minister of Justice. When you sign your contracts to act as New Brunswick's provincial police, are clear and specific standards stated in those contracts?

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: Yes, there are standards, but when we talk about the bilingualism policy, the standards come from Treasury Board. It's the Treasury Board that establishes the standards we must meet.

Senator Gérald Beaudoin: The Treasury Board in Ottawa?

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: In Ottawa, yes.

Senator Gérald Beaudoin: He is subject to the Official Languages Act.

º (1625)

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: Yes. I must comply with those policies and standards, and that's what we do. We do it and we work with the provinces. Mr. Godin mentioned that there is a new act, and we are working with the province. We want to comply with it because it is out of the question for us not to comply with it. We are working with the province and with the Société des Acadiens et Acadiennes du Nouveau-Brunswick. We have had a number of meetings with those people, and I am sure we're going to have others, to try to come to an accommodation. That's what we want to do and we are working very hard to do it.

Senator Gérald Beaudoin: I want to emphasize that, in Quebec and Ontario, the police is provincial. In the other provinces, unless I'm mistaken, it is always federal, and there is an agreement with the province concerned. When you enforce the Criminal Code, you are definitely required, as a result of court decisions, to respect bilingualism.

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: Absolutely.

Senator Gérald Beaudoin: In New Brunswick, of course, the proportion of 34 percent is quite high, but, in Alberta or other provinces, I imagine that must be a bit more difficult. So I ask you this question: in practice, are you able to meet bilingual standards in the sphere of the Criminal Code?

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: Yes, we do. For example, in Manitoba, we comply with the act because there are Francophone communities there and we are working with those communities. There have been problems, but I am very pleased to say we have found solutions to a number of them. We now have enough bilingual members to meet the needs of the Francophone communities.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): A final question, senator?

Senator Gérald Beaudoin: No, that's all right. I wanted to draw a distinction between criminal law and the administration of the Criminal Code, and the fact that the federal police in Canada acts as a provincial police force. It's probably unique to Canada, but it's not a bad thing. I think it's good. The Official Languages Act, 1988 has been in existence for 14 years now, and I believe we must manage to submit to these rules.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Thank you.

Mr. Binet.

Mr. Gérard Binet (Frontenac—Mégantic, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to begin by congratulating you on your good work. When I was younger, in my mind, the image of the RCMP and the mounted police officer was very important. At the international level, you also have a very good image.

There are two detachments in my riding. There's currently one in Megantic and the one in Thetford Mines was closed. We found that quite unpleasant, but we are very proud of our RCMP in Megantic. It does a very good job.

I would like to know the date the Official Languages Act went into effect.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): It was passed in 1969, but there was a revision in 1998.

Mr. Gérard Binet: In 1988? Mr. Bérubé, you work at the RCMP as the manager of official languages. Were you there in 1968?

Mr. André Bérubé: No.

Mr. Gérard Binet: Were you there in 1988?

Mr. André Bérubé: No, I was at Indian Affairs at the time.

Mr. Gérard Binet: Mr. Bouchard, were you there in 1988?

Chief Superintendent Yves Bouchard (Royal Canadian Mounted Police): Yes, in 1988.

Mr. Gérard Binet: You were there and Mr. Zaccardelli as well.

We always talk about improving, but so that we can know where we started and where we finished, I ask people to give me percentages. With figures, it's easy to understand. Sometimes a term doesn't help us to understand everything. In terms of percentages, where was the RCMP in 1988 and where is it today? It's obviously not 100 percent because you said there was room for improvement. What percentage would you give for the RCMP in 1988 and what percentage would you give it today for official languages?

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: I'm going to ask Mr. Bérubé to tell you where we were in 1988. Allow me to tell you where we were in 1969, when this began.

Mr. Gérard Binet: I'd be pleased.

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: I entered the RCMP in 1970, but I can tell you that, in Quebec, in 1969, all Francophone police officers were required to work and write in English. I'm not proud of that, but that was the reality. I tell you that to give you a little perspective.

Now I'm going to give the floor to Mr. Bérubé, who will tell you where we were in 1988.

Mr. André Bérubé: In 1988, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police did not identify the language requirements of its positions as other departments did. It was only after the Gingras decision in 1992, which granted the bilingualism bonus to the members of the RCMP, that the RCMP adopted the system for identifying the language requirements of positions which is used in the public service. So we don't have figures prior to 1988. There was a quota. They said, at a particular place, there were so many requests for service in French and there consequently had to be so many bilingual positions. Subsequently, we did not have figures on the incumbents of positions. Mangers simply had to ensure they met their quota, and everything was all right.

In 1994, the RCMP adopted the system that is used in all the federal institutions governed by the Public Service Employment Act. Bilingual positions are identified, they are given a realistic profile, and members must take the same language test as public servants. Today, we can produce figures that can be compared to those from the rest of the public service. In 2001, for example, Ms. Robillard reported that 81 percent of incumbents of bilingual positions who provided service to the public across all federal institutions met the requirements of their positions in their second language. On the same date, the figure was 82 percent at the RCMP. We led those institutions by one percentage point.

We are still awaiting the Treasury Board national data for this year, but, in April 2002, according to Mr. Zaccardelli's annual report, 85 percent of our incumbents of bilingual positions providing service to the public met the requirements of their positions. So I give us a mark of 85 percent.

º (1630)

Mr. Gérard Binet: Today?

Mr. André Bérubé: Today.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Do you have figures for 1994?

Mr. André Bérubé: No, because we were changing at that time. It was not until 1998 that we began to gather data, and it took three or four years to discipline the PeopleSoft system.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Thank you.

Mr. Gérard Binet: Can it be said that, at the start, the RCMP could have been given a low mark of five percent?

Mr. André Bérubé: Well, I can speak from my own experience. I'm from New Brunswick, and I was arrested by the RCMP in Edmunston in 1973 because I was driving a moped without a helmet. The police officer did not speak a word of French. I hope I don't get arrested in Edmunston, but I guarantee that, today, all officers in northwestern and northeastern New Brunswick can speak French. Nearly 80 percent of them are Francophones.

Mr. Gérard Binet: Do you agree with me that you were at five percent then and are at 85 percent today? That means there's been an 80 percent increase.

Mr. André Bérubé: Mr. Zaccardelli is insisting that we achieve 100 percent.

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: Mr. Chairman, may I ask Mr. Bouchard to answer the question from another perspective?

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Go ahead.

Mr. Gérard Binet: Mr. Bouchard was my first choice.

C/Supt Yves Bouchard: I joined the RCMP in 1973. At that time, I was a unilingual Francophone. I'm originally from Charlevoix County. I had a shock when I entered the RCMP, which I thought I knew, but which I did not know very well at all. When I arrived in Regina, things happened in English only. Bilingualism was taking shape at the time, and, when we needed services, there was a counsellor who could help us in evenings and on weekends.

It was very tough at the time for a Francophone to manage to follow the training. As a Francophone, I reported to Regina and managed to make it through. However, I have bad memories of the time. There are always pros and cons.

I believe that developments in this area, regardless of the department or organization, have been very positive. A moment ago, the Commissioner mentioned that he wanted to see an improvement and that he was aiming for 100 percent, but I can tell you that considering my development and the development of the official languages... There is still a lot to do. I believe we all agree on that.

As far as I'm concerned, if I had to join the RCMP today as a unilingual Francophone, as was my case at the time, it would be much easier to go to Regina and obtain services. However, I look at that on a cultural level. At the time, I managed to follow the training thanks, no doubt, to the help of my unilingual Anglophone colleagues, among other things. At first, we didn't understand each other and we made gestures. We nevertheless managed to get through it. The Anglophones helped me a lot. I'm very sympathetic to their cause. Subsequently, I returned the favour and I continue to do so. I always will because I want to thank them for helping me get through the training and get to know another culture.

I have made my way in the RCMP by going through various stages, and I am proud to have gotten where I am today, as a Francophone, first. Second, I'm proud today to be responsible for the official languages sector because that's where my heart is, even though I have other sectors under my responsibility as well.

I'm prepared to support Mr. Zaccardelli and to push in the same direction so that we can improve. It's with forms such as this and with the questions you asked that we will be able to improve our services. You have concerns and you raise certain questions, which is entirely legitimate. As an organization, the RCMP has a corporate responsibility. Ultimately, we still hope to provide better service to the Canadian public. That's our main goal.

º (1635)

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Thank you very much.

We can come back to you in a while, but I now have to give Mr. Castonguay the floor.

Mr. Jeannot Castonguay (Madawaska—Restigouche, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

First, I'm going to give you my point of view. I believe you provide a service that affects the public across the country, which is a bilingual country. Even through we say that such and such a region is Anglophone or Francophone, the fact is that, as a Canadian, I travel across the country and I could be arrested anywhere. I dare believe that, in that case, I would be served in the official language of my choice. I believe that's the long-term objective we should aim for.

That having been said, a number of times, Commissioner, when you answered Mr. Sauvageau, I heard you say that you were not satisfied with the present situation regarding bilingual service. Did I understand correctly?

You were asked what you intended to do in concrete terms to change matters, but I did not hear the answer because I believe there was none. What do you need to change the situation? Are there things that aren't there that you should have? It would be important for us to know that.

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: As mentioned earlier, we included seven points in our plan and we are following them in an attempt to really move the matter forward. This is very important. It's not something we are going to settle in a year; it will take time. We have a vision, our plan is in place and we are going to follow it, but there's going to be an improvement in the situation. I'm not satisfied, as I said; I come from Quebec and I was raised there. I didn't learn my French in Quebec, but in Calgary. No one believes me when I say that, but I was actually raised completely in English; I'm half Italian and half Anglophone. It's when I went to Calgary, where there are more immersion courses, that I learned French. It's incredible what there is in Calgary.

Madam, you were speaking earlier about Anglophones who are increasingly becoming bilingual; that's a situation we want for our country. If everyone was bilingual, we would have no problems here. However, we have a plan.

First, we have to comply with the act. The Treasury Board policy is the guide and the act; we have to comply with that act. The Treasury Board specifies that, in the context of the 204 positions in the country, service must be provided in both languages. That's what we are doing.

As I said earlier, I am increasingly trying to bring about a situation, as is the case in New Brunswick, where more than 50 percent of our members are Francophone. Our bilingual potential is greater than what the Treasury Board requires; we have exceeded objectives, and I'm very proud of that, but I'm not satisfied with the situation in other parts of the country. So we're looking for money to send members for language training; we encourage them to take courses, and some are even taking vacation in order to go take French courses. We encourage officers who must be bilingual; in fact, today, most of them must be. Members who sit on the RCMP executive committee are all bilingual and they must be bilingual, but there is still work to be done.

Mr. Jeannot Castonguay: First, do you have the necessary budgets for what you want to do? Second, does your plan have a timetable? It's all well and good to have plans, but, with human nature being what it is, the timetable gets forgotten.

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: We have set 2003 as our deadline for verifying improvement and putting the seven points in place. Then we are going to see exactly where we stand with regard to the seven points identified. This is a subject which is public, and I'm sure to be called back before this committee to explain myself. As far as I'm concerned, I intend to be here and to occupy the position of commissioner in 2003-2004, and even to go further still.

º (1640)

Mr. Jeannot Castonguay: You know you can make statistics say whatever you want; you just have to organize them in a certain way. It's a kind of game, but, to come back to my opening statement, I would like to know whether, in your opinion, that's not the objective that should be set, since officers cover certain territories and Canadians travel. Furthermore, if I am arrested in Calgary, I hope I can receive my contravention from a Francophone. Can I expect that? Are you trying to achieve that level of bilingualism?

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: I can't guarantee that you're going to meet a Francophone at the RCMP in Calgary because, if I'm not mistaken, the Treasury Board does not require that positions there be bilingual.

Mr. André Bérubé: The fact is that the RCMP does not have a detachment in the Calgary urban area.

Mr. Jeannot Castonguay: I understand that perfectly well, but I want to know whether that's not what should be aimed for.

Mr. André Bérubé: In Calgary, for example, there is a municipal police department; it's not the RCMP that's there.

Mr. Jeannot Castonguay: But regardless of where the RCMP is, shouldn't the objective be, for arrests across the country, to provide service in both official languages?

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: Yes, that's a bit of an overall vision, and I agree with that.

Mr. Jeannot Castonguay: Thank you. That answers my question.

C/Supt Yves Bouchard: With your permission, I'm going to add something.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Very briefly.

C/Supt Yves Bouchard: Someone answered this earlier. It's true that people from the new generation are increasingly responsible for seeing where they want to go. We talk about a plan or a career path. Today, contrary to what was offered to us at the time, what more are we offering them? The opportunity to draw up their career plan. If they want to become senior officers, they must become bilingual, which Anglophones are much more inclined to do. That will indeed have an effect on service to the public.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Thank you.

Mr. Sauvageau.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: I was listening to your remarks and those of Mr. Castonguay, who is going to be speeding. To cite a slightly more concrete example, I would like to talk about the security service that was assigned to watch over our cars after September 11. Until I filed a complaint with John Manley and another authority, it was provided by a group of unilingual Anglophones. One day, I told Ms. Adam that, if another person was unable to say hello to me in French, that would be really too bad since I would leave my car there; I would switch on my alarm system and leave. They apparently changed the group. It seems to me that, if there is one place where the RCMP should comply with the act, it is on Parliament Hill. There was a terribly serious deficiency, in my view.

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: I would like to respond to that comment. You raised a very important point. You mentioned September 11. Mr. Chairman, what has happened since September 11? We did not have sufficient resources in the National Capital Region. Here, the vast majority of members are bilingual, and most are Francophone. But because of the crisis, I was forced to increase the resources we had here. I was obliged to take police officers from across the country to increase strength here. I had no choice. I had to call upon certain Anglophone police officers, but that was because of the crisis. I understand the situation perfectly well. It's not an excuse, but it's just to explain to you what happened. Afterwards, we took steps to correct the situation. That's the background to what happened.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: You have a seven-point plan. We have received a six-point plan from the Prime Minister, a seven-point plan from you and an eight-point plan from Ms. Steward. The more plans we get, the more points we'll have for solving problems. With your permission, I will suggest three more. You say you intend to comply with the Official Languages Act. With regard to bilingual imperative staffing, why don't you start hiring people tomorrow morning to fill bilingual positions? The problem has been dragging on since 1969 because you hired unilingual Anglophones to occupy bilingual positions.

The eighth point of your seven-point plan could be this: “We are going to hire bilingual persons to occupy bilingual positions.” It seems to me it wouldn't be too complicated. The ninth point could read as follows: “Even though we are not required to do so, we are going to be one of the 29 institutions or organizations which annually tables a report under the Official Languages Act with the Department of Canadian Heritage.” There are 29 departments or agencies of the some 220, that are required to do so. You do not file a report because you are not required to do so. So you are not violating the act. However, to prove your good intentions, the ninth point I suggest to you, in your seven-point plan, would be that.

You also say that the RCMP conducts regular checks to see that the 204 designated bilingual service points comply with the act. My tenth point would be to make public the checks you conduct through the Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages or the committee. First, what are the control criteria? Does the Treasury Board tell you what must be checked? Is it an internal control, with an internal audit and internal comments? So points 8, 9 and 10 are successively: bilingual staffing for bilingual positions, filing a report, even though you are not required to do so, and access to control checks conducted at the 204 designated bilingual service points. Do you agree with that? Since you say you want to demonstrate through concrete actions your desire to improve things, it seems to me that would be feasible.

º (1645)

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: I thank you for your recommendations. I'm going to ask Mr. Bérubé to comment on those points.

Mr. André Bérubé: On June 12, when the briefing book was already prepared, we learned that the Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages had decided to close the file on the two complaints respecting the RCMP on the Hill and the Rockcliffe Parkway because it was satisfied with the stringent measures taken by the RCMP to correct the problem.

As to our relations with Heritage Canada, it is my pleasure to announce to you--I had not yet informed Mr. Zaccardelli--that the RCMP has already contacted the persons responsible for Heritage Canada's IPOLC program and that we will be invited to attend their network meeting in September. We intend to encourage our regional officers responsible for official languages to work with IPOLC and to inform it of all the work which is being done at the RCMP which we did not previously report. For example, in January, the commander of the New Brunswick division paid the costs to print an anti-drug brochure in French and to distribute it to all French-language schools in New Brunswick. In November of last year, the RCMP organized a two-day forum in Bathurst on the fight against drugs. It invited Olympic athletes, including one Francophone, and all that was done without publicity. With IPOLC, we hope to be a little more visible and, in the coming years, we will probably be able to report what is being done with regard to Part VII of the act.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Thank you, Mr. Sauvageau.

Senator Gauthier.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: I congratulate you on your IPOLC initiative. I was just going to ask you the question. You aren't a designated federal institution under the regulations, which require that a report be filed with the Department of Canadian Heritage every year. You aren't a federal institution, but you are borrowing the mechanisms from the institution; the IPOLC is one.

I don't know whether people know what IPOLC means. Do you know? It's the Interdepartmental Partnership with Official Language Communities.

I have a question for Mr. Zaccardelli. I wrote you in July 2001. You answered me in August with a very nice letter. You're not bad; it's rare that a federal agency answers in two or three weeks. I was surprised because most of the time, you have to wait two months.

In my letter, I told you about agreements with the provinces or the municipalities. You answered me, on page 2:

I have therefore informed Ms. Adam that our contractual obligations with respect to the province and the municipalities prevent us from resorting more often to non-imperative staffing.

Do you remember that?

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: Yes.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: Since that correspondence, New Brunswick has passed a new Official Languages Act.

Have you been given relevant information on the scope of that new act? Have you been told what it means for you, the RCMP?

º (1650)

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: My lawyers are examining the act. As I said, I intend to comply with the act to the highest degree. I have no intention of shirking my responsibilities concerning the act.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: I visited the Burolis site. Are you familiar with it?

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: Yes.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: In your brief, you say that there are 204 out of 753 offices. Today, at 1:15, on Burolis, it said that there were 822, 238 of which are bilingual.

Mr. André Bérubé: Those are service points. There are detachments which have two obligations: one obligation at a port of entry and an obligation in the service area.

When we counted them up, we counted those points only once, which explains the difference between 235 and 204. We felt that it wasn't worth it to count a detachment twice if there is only one entity providing service.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: So those who consult Burolis think that 36 percent of RCMP constables are unilingual English will not discover the truth.

Mr. André Bérubé: Is it 36...?

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: That's what appears on Burolis for New Brunswick: the detachment office has 78 positions, 50 of which are bilingual and 28 unilingual. The percentage of bilinguals is 64 percent and that of unilinguals is 36 percent.

Mr. André Bérubé: Those are offices and not...

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: With the new New Brunswick act, you're going to be forced to comply. You said a moment ago that you had to comply with the act. I agree. You will have to tell your police officers that the rules have changed. New Brunswick is the only bilingual province in the country. The RCMP, if it wants to do the policing, will have to...

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: Absolutely. If the Treasury Board and the provinces can come to an agreement, we will comply with that agreement. Once again, my intention is to maximize the service we can give the population of New Brunswick.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: Do you have an objection to my circulating this, sir? I am going to give it to the clerk; he will have it translated. If he could circulate it, I would appreciate that. There's good information in it.

Why are you not a federal institution?

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: Pardon me?

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: Why isn't the RCMP designated as a federal institution?

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: I don't know whether I understand the question, but we are a federal institution.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: There are 29 of them.

Mr. André Bérubé: I believe that the designation was for the departments, for the institutions that had a cultural role, an economic role and perhaps a resource development role. In fact, the RCMP did not meet the selection criteria for the 29 institutions.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: I know the criteria. I know why, but I was wondering whether you or Mr. Zaccardelli knew them, because there may be political reasons.

Mr. André Bérubé: No, not as far as I know.

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: That was long before I became commissioner.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: The CRTC isn't a federal institution either under the terms of the 1995 agreement. So you are cousins.

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: Senator Gauthier, I'm going to inquire into this matter because I don't have the answer. I would like to do a little research. If I find the answer, I'll send it to the court.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: If you did it for tomorrow, Commissioner, you would be a good friend of Jean-Robert because I did that last week with the Prime Minister and I proposed that you become a federal institution.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Thank you.

Mr. Godin. Then we'll move on to Senator Maheu before concluding.

Mr. Yvon Godin: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

A moment ago, I asked how many senior executives in Quebec were bilingual. You answered that they were all bilingual, but that the same was not true elsewhere in the country.

In New Brunswick, are they all bilingual?

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: Yes, 100 percent. I spent four years in New Brunswick, and the commander and all officers are bilingual.

Mr. Yvon Godin: Is that the case everywhere in New Brunswick? In Saint-John? In Fredericton?

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: There are no officers in Saint-John. The provincial headquarters is in Fredericton. There are also districts where all officers are bilingual. The officer responsible in Moncton, of course, is bilingual.

Mr. Yvon Godin: In regions such as Doaktown, for example, are the police chiefs all bilingual?

º (1655)

Mr. André Bérubé: Not in Doaktown. Doaktown is in the district of Blackville. In accordance with the Treasury Board regulations on service to the public, there is no significant demand for service in Blackville, as the Francophone population is only 0.1 percent.

There are six RCMP officers in New Brunswick who occupy bilingual positions and have or exceed level CBC in their second language.

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: I don't know whether I'm mistaken here. When I talk about officers, I'm talking about inspectors and people at a higher level. Detachment heads are not all officers; there are corporals and sergeants. They aren't officers. A sergeant is a non-commissioned officer. When you mentioned officers, I meant inspectors and people at a higher level. There are six in New Brunswick, and they are all bilingual.

Mr. Yvon Godin: A moment ago, you mentioned Doaktown, where the Francophone population is 0.1 percent. What is the percentage required for bilingual service to be offered?

Mr. André Bérubé: It's five percent or 500. The rule is applied across New Brunswick and elsewhere. Of 65 offices or detachments in New Brunswick, 43 are required to provide bilingual service.

Mr. Yvon Godin: I have one brief final comment. At the time of the incidents at the Saint-Sauveur and Saint-Simon schools, I remember clearly that, when we wanted to raise this problem with the Solicitor General of Canada, we were told that it was a provincial matter because the RCMP was paid by the provincial government. Now we're talking about languages, and we're told it's federal.

Can you explain to me how it is that there is a double standard when it comes to language and service?

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: Through the Solicitor General, the federal government has an agreement with the province to provide police services on contract. According to the agreement, 70 percent of the costs are paid by the province and 30 percent by the federal government. We provide a service, but we are still a federal agency. Since we are a federal agency, federal laws apply to us. We are not treated in accordance with provincial statutes. Cases have been brought before the Supreme Court, which has decided this question. That's the reason there are two things.

Mr. Yvon Godin: I would like to finish with a brief comment for Mr. Bouchard.

I too am a Francophone who learned English at the age of 16. But here, I don't think we're talking about the luck we had to learn English; we're talking about services that must be provided in both languages under the act, and I don't think we should be required to go down on our knees to get them. They are services that should be offered in accordance with the act. It's not easy for a Francophone to come here and always be forced to criticize. Today, around this table, few Anglophones have offered any criticism. What you did in 1973 is being repeated. We Francophones are still forced to complain. We don't like that, but we do it to advance matters. There is an act which must be complied with, and we are still forced to fight for that to be so. It's not pleasant.

C/Supt Yves Bouchard: I support some of the comments you made a moment ago. We are here to hear your criticisms or suggestions, particularly your suggestions because this is a positive interaction, and to see how they could be applicable and how far we can go. A moment ago, this gentlemen asked us where we wanted to go and what our vision was. There's often a difference between a vision and reality, but you have to have a vision in order to arrive at a reality. There's always a happy medium.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Thank you very much.

Ms. Maheu.

The Joint Chair (Senator Shirley Maheu, Rougemont, Lib.): Thank you.

I want to come back to two points. You mentioned training after the appointment of an RCMP employee. You also mentioned that you could hire a unilingual person, an Anglophone or a Francophone, and then offer that person training.

[English]

Why would you want to do that?

[Translation]

What is the result for you in hiring a unilingual then offering that person a course, when you know perfectly well that, to learn French, a short federal government course results... I would like to have your comments on that. How bilingual are people at the end of that course?

Second, what do you think about our Charter of Rights and Freedoms, more precisely section 16?

» (1700)

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: You ask why we hire unilinguals and then send them on training courses. It's because we want to give everyone a chance to become bilingual. We're talking about a vision, a dream. It's too bad all Canadians aren't bilingual. So we want to give people the opportunity to become bilingual. Some Anglophones should have that right. For those who want to work in a Francophone environment and have access to senior positions in the organization, there must be a mechanism to enable them to receive training. It's the same thing in the case of Francophones.

Now, for the first time in our history, we're starting to have unilingual Francophones. They are entitled to this training. A number of people in our country believe that Francophones are born bilingual. As you know, that's not at all true. So we want to give Francophones an opportunity if they want to take it. If they want to work in a completely Francophone environment, positions are limited, but they have the right to work in a Francophone environment, just as Anglophones have the right to work in an Anglophone environment.

What success have we had? There's been some, but I'm not yet satisfied. Some really wanted to become bilingual and they became bilingual. Some spent nine or 12 months in training, but did not speak a single word of French the rest of their lives. That's unfortunate. In one sense, it's the organization's fault because we did not force them to speak French. It's not easy, as you know. Anglophones tend to say that, once they have mastered the language, they will start to practise it. I tell them that if they don't make mistakes, they'll never master it. I get along in French, but from time to time... You have to make an effort to learn a language. You learn by making mistakes. That's very important. There's no rule.

Now we don't have as much money as we did in the past. In New Brunswick, we spend a fortune when we began providing training. Now, because we have enough bilinguals, under the Official Languages Act...

Mr. Yvon Godin: You want to make cuts in northern New Brunswick.

The Joint Chair (Senator Shirley Maheu): Do you think French courses are enough?

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: For those who want to learn and become bilingual, it's enough. It gives them a base, but they then have to work in an environment where French is spoken. That's what's needed. If they don't work in an environment where French is spoken, they can go to school for the rest of their lives, but they will never become bilingual, in my view.

The Joint Chair (Senator Shirley Maheu): And the Charter of Rights and Freedoms?

Mr. André Bérubé: You're talking about the section on the equality of French and English, aren't you?

The Joint Chair (Senator Shirley Maheu): I want to have your opinion on that. You can give it later, if you wish. What do you think of that section of the Charter? What does it mean for the RCMP?

Mr. André Bérubé: The RCMP complies with the Charter and the Official Languages Act. Section 16 provides that English and French are equal languages in Canada and have equality of status in the federal institutions. I believe that Mr. Zaccardelli has shown you this afternoon that there is work to do, but we are increasingly headed toward a situation in which English and French will have equal status.

Now, with regard to service to the public, the Charter also provides that significant demand must be measured. The RCMP respects...

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Where do you find that?

Mr. André Bérubé: It's section 20 of the Charter. The RCMP complies with the Treasury Board regulations which define the thresholds that constitute significant demand across the country. So we fully comply with the Charter.

» (1705)

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Thank you.

I'm going to ask you a few questions, then two colleagues will take two and a half minutes each in the third round.

With your permission, Commissioner, I'm going to ask you questions on the Internet sites. You say in your report that you admit there have been complaints on this subject. Incidentally, if you want more complaints, the next time I have some, I'll make them, and we'll compare the figures a little later. I quote your document:

In the 2002-2003 fiscal year, the RCMP will have to establish a policy on the use of the two official languages on Internet sites and that policy will have to designate a policy centre responsible for exercising national control.

Are you talking about a deadline which is the end of the 2002-2003 fiscal year, that is to say the end of March of next year at the latest?

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: Yes. I would like to add that that's one of the points we discussed at a meeting of my executive committee. What happened because of the Internet? All the positions, detachments or offices started creating Web sites. At one point, I said we had to made regulations and apply a national policy on this. Not only were there deficiencies in the content of the Web sites, but most of the Web sites were not bilingual. So there has to be a national policy, and we're going to do some clean-up work in all that. I hope I'll be able to do it by the deadline.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): You said we would have to designate a policy centre. Have you designated a policy centre?

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: Yes. The policy centre is Ottawa. There is going to be a policy that will apply to everyone.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Who in Ottawa will have that responsibility? Have you decided at what level it will be?

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: It comes from here, from the official languages office. That's where it will begin, and the person responsible for computers, who is responsible for software, will follow.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Have you identified resources for that in your 2002-2003 estimates?

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: There's no budget for that, but the policy will be very clear: the Web sites will have to be cleaned up. If the sites are not bilingual, they will have to become bilingual. It's not a question of resources. They made those sites with the resources they had and they're going to change them with the resources they have.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Thank you.

Mr. Godin.

Mr. Yvon Godin: In New Brunswick, we read in a newspaper article: “The RCMP is considering eliminating many services it offers in the northern rural region of the province as a result of a lack of provincial funding.”

We know that the northern part of the province is quite Francophone. Is it because bilingual service is more costly that there could be cuts in the northern part of the province?

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: No, not at all. There's no correlation between the service we provide and the costs associated with bilingual members. As I said, most members who work in northern New Brunswick are Francophone. The training they receive from time to time, if they need it, is language training in English. The cuts we're talking about have nothing to do with bilingualism. As we said earlier, it's the province that decides on the service and number of police officers it wants to have. It's the province that pays. If it decides to reduce the number of police officers in its territory, that's its decision. We are negotiating with the province. We have established a budget and indicated how many personnel we want to have. Ultimately, it's the province that decides on how many police officers it wants.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Thank you.

Senator Gauthier.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: Thank you.

Mr. Zaccardelli, I want to finish with the question from Mr. Sauvageau. The 1998 act provided that, starting in 1991, all federal institutions would have to provide work and communication instruments in both official languages.

» (1710)

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: Yes.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: It's now 2002. I spoke to you a little about this earlier. That's 10 years. You say you have hired a specialist to tell you how to do that and you just answered Mr. Sauvageau that you are going to have a national coordinator for all that. That's very good, but can you tell me when that exercise will end?

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: I've already retained the services of an auditor who will give us a basis and tell us where we stand. Before beginning to take measures to correct the situation, I must determine the situation. We have to start with an auditor. I can't say what has happened in the past, but I can tell you I'm not pleased with what we have. The auditors are there, and I will issue a policy once I've received their report.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: I would ask you to answer a final question to help me understand the classification of positions and the weighting you have for each officer position. The case in question concerns the allegation that you changed the weighting of positions to accommodate certain persons who were unable to meet the requirements of their positions. That's essentially what I was told. You're telling me that's not the case. I understand, but can you send me the text of your policy which states how you compare positions and do the weighting? It's not similar to what is done in the public service. The Treasury Board told us that the weighthing was the same as in the public service, but a B, a C and an A are not the same thing at the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. It can be an I “S” or a II “S”. There are all kinds of different classifications of positions. I would like to understand.

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: You're right. We'll send you our policy. In fact, our policy is to follow the Treasury Board policy. We meet the standards required by the Treasury Board. Level C at the RCMP corresponds to level C in the public service. It should be the same thing. When we take into consideration the human factor, there may be subtle differences, but we try to comply as far as possible with the spirit of the Treasury Board policy, Senator Gauthier.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Thank you very much.

Commissioner, if I understand correctly, we'll be seeing each other in 2003.

Commr Giuliano Zaccardelli: Yes. As I said, I intend to remain commissioner until then.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): We will definitely invite you back by then. I'm told that the RCMP had not appeared before the committee for seven or eight years. We won't be waiting that long.

Thank you for appearing here. We await the information you are going to provide us. Thank you as well for acknowledging that the RCMP must accept New Brunswick's new Official Languages Act, just as it must also comply with Canada's Official Languages Act.

Ladies and gentlemen, we are going to suspend the meeting for a minute to enable our guests to leave. We have two or three things to attend to. It won't be very long.

» (1713)

» (1715)

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): We'll resume. We're not in camera.

Ladies and gentlemen, you should have received, today, at your offices, a new version of a report on our work on immigration, which is confidential until it has been adopted. It has been amended on the basis of the announcements and comments we received. It would ask you to look at it. It would be desirable for us to study it tomorrow following the appearance of the Public Service Commission. We, in the Senate and in the House, have obtained permission to table reports all summer if we wish.

Second, following last week's appearance of RDS and the Club de hockey Canadien, I asked members of the steering committee whether we had to continue on this line and invite Radio-Canada back and invite the National Hockey League. As far as the National Hockey League goes, the clerk has confirmed that its representatives have accepted. They should be here on Wednesday, and they are insisting that Mr. Boivin accompany them, which appears to be settled.

Late Friday afternoon, we received a letter from Radio-Canada, which we circulated this morning, in which its representatives politely refused to come back and see us. We have to decide whether or not we will accept that refusal. That's one of the questions we have to decide. Do you have any comments?

Mr. Sauvageau.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: If they want to come back, I don't see any objection, but what troubles me a bit, however, is the fact that the Minister told us she wanted to see a report from the committee before taking action.

Perhaps we could issue an interim report today. Senator Gauthier might rap my knuckles because I'm not meeting the standards, but she told me that during the question period, at 2:55 p.m., when we had a committee meeting at 3:30 p.m. Perhaps we could table an interim report saying that we recommend the Minister file a complaint with the CRTC and that we will continue the study which will enable us to deal with the final report.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Mr. Sauvageau, with all due respect, no report has been prepared, and we cannot write one before hearing the National Hockey League.

Mr. Godin.

Mr. Yvon Godin: Mr. Chairman, according to procedure, in cases where persons are invited to come and testify before a parliamentary committee and the committee feels it must bring witnesses back, in my view, they are required to appear. I find it unacceptable that Radio-Canada should refuse to do so, despite the polite tone of its letter. A Crown corporation must not refuse to appear before a parliamentary committee. If, as elected representatives, we insist that it appear, I believe it has an obligation to appear before us.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Are there any other comments?

Ms. Thibeault.

Ms. Yolande Thibeault: No, not really, but I agree with what Mr. Godin just said. There's also something that concerns me, and that's the fact that time is passing. We're talking about a decision that must be made as soon as possible if we want to have hockey in September.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Thank you.

Senator Gauthier.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: First, I've just checked with my office; I never received any new report on immigration. Send me a copy, if you want me to look at it.

Second, there is a contract between RDS and the Club de hockey Canadien, and I see no point in bringing Mr. Boivin back so that he can tell us again that he signed a contract with RDS.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Senator, I would like to make a correction. We have not invited Mr. Boivin back. We have invited Radio-Canada because there were discrepancies between what we heard last week when Radio-Canada appeared and what we heard when RDS appeared, and we have asked that the National Hockey League be invited.

The National Hockey League has accepted and it is going to bring Mr. Boivin. Ultimately, we didn't invite him. The League has accepted and will be here on Wednesday.

» (1720)

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: So you wanted to invite Radio-Canada back and they politely put you off.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): That's correct.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: What do you want me to do?

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): It's up to the committee to decide whether or not it wants to summon them to appear.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: Yvon Godin said they should come back, and I agree, but if they don't want to, it will take an order from the House to make them come.

Mr. Mauril Bélanger (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): We start right here.

When a resolution summoning witnesses to appear is passed by the committee, they usually come. If that's not the case, we'll do something else. The first step is to summon them and to come and meet us.

Senator Beaudoin.

Senator Gérald Beaudoin: I come back to my basic argument. I have a great deal of respect for Radio-Canada. They have done so much for French culture in America. I've only good things to say about them. We have two national networks in Canada: an Anglophone network and a Francophone network. As a result of circumstances, the Anglophone network finds itself in a privileged position. Francophones, because they are probably fewer, among other things, find themselves in a more difficult position. But that changes nothing with regard to the act. They must aim to establish equality between the two networks. In my view, if necessary, Radio-Canada should be helped.

As for the argument concerning the contract, it's true there is a contract with the hockey club regarding broadcasting rights, but it must comply with the Official Languages Act. An organization such as Radio-Canada is subject to the Official Languages Act and, as a general rule, it manages to do so very well. Why does it not manage to do as well in this area? They say the hockey club does not want to assign its rights so that that leads to La Soirée du hockey. I understand that, but, if I were in the Minister's shoes, it seems to me I would see this as a chance to settle that by opting to help Radio-Canada.

I find it quite deplorable. After all, La Soirée du hockey does not cost billions of dollars. For those reasons, I believe we should insist that they come back.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Are there any other comments?

Senator Gauthier.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: By summoning Radio-Canada here, the committee will be confronting its representatives with the facts as given by Mr. Boivin. He said there was a contract, but Radio-Canada said it was oral.

» (1725)

Why couldn't we do something positive and table a report in which we would describe things as they are? It has never hurt to tell others what you think.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): No, and there is nothing preventing us from doing it, senator. Moreover, I would point out to you that, both in the Senate and in the House, as I said a moment ago, the committee has obtained permission to table the reports it wants to table throughout the summer. But I follow the wishes of the members of the steering committee, who said they wanted to meet the National Hockey League, which was arranged, and to see Radio-Canada again. After that, I imagine we can prepare a report, if we wish, or see whether we want to invite other persons. It's in that sense that I present this, but I sense that people around this table want to insist that Radio-Canada appear before our committee once again. Am I mistaken?

Do we want to pass a resolution to that effect?

Mr. Yvon Godin: I move that we summon Radio-Canada/CBC to come back and meet us concerning La Soirée du hockey.

(Motion agreed to)

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Thank you. I've asked our clerk to circulate a copy of a decision to which Senator Gauthier referred in the Senate last week on the subject of the broadcasting of CPAC. That decision was made on June 5 by the Federal Court, Trial Division. It is a document that will probably be of interest to committee members. You're going to receive that as well.

Mr. Godin.

Mr. Yvon Godin: With regard to CPAC, are you talking about a report, a decision?

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): I'm talking about a decision by the Federal Court.

Mr. Yvon Godin: I don't know how many problems of this kind we have in Canada, but I've talked about them a number of times. In Bathurst, the debates are broadcast as they take place in the House. We have people who speak English only and others who speak French only. If someone in the House of Commons asks a question in French and it is answered in English, people at home don't have any idea what is going on. I think the decision should apply to a place such as my riding. The service shouldn't be in both languages. In Bathurst, there are unilinguals, both Anglophones and Francophones.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): On that, Mr. Godin, I'm going to circulate the decision because I think it is important that the members of the Official Languages Committee be aware of it.

You will remember that we have gotten the CRTC to agree that, starting on September 1 of this year, all cable companies with more than 2,000 subscribers will be required to provide the English feed and the French feed as well.

The Federal Court decision requires the House of Commons to ensure that all Canadians can have access to House debates in the language of their choice. The idea is to determine whether the House or the Board of Internal Economy will accept the decision or appeal from it, but we're not at that stage yet.

Senator Gauthier.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: There's a disagreement between Ms. Catterall and you on the interpretation of that. All I can tell you is that we have no difficulties in the Senate, but I would also like to point out that this entire matter of the CRTC decision, of the committee's recommendation and of Judge O'Keefe's decision, I believe, in the Quigley case can easily be settled with a second channel, the SAP, second audio program.

Ms. Watson told us in committee that CPAC would spend several hundreds of thousands of dollars to equip its cable companies with what is required to decode the subtitles in English and in French or the audio in English and in French. The technology is there; all that's required is a little will. I don't see where the problem is.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): In any case, we're going to circulate a copy of the decision for information purposes. Then we'll see what happens.

That's all I have to say. Unless other committee members have matters to raise, we will close the session. We will meet tomorrow.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: [Editor's Note: Inaudible] ...the report on immigration until 6:30 or 7:00 p.m.?

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): No, because some committee members have not received it.

Tomorrow, we will receive the Public Service Commission at 3:30 p.m. And Wednesday, we will receive the National Hockey League. We will also see whether Radio-Canada will bend to our will or not. Thank you.

The meeting is adjourned.