LANG Committee Meeting

STANDING JOINT COMMITTEE ON OFFICIAL LANGUAGES

COMITÉ MIXTE PERMANENT DES LANGUES OFFICIELLES

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Tuesday, February 15, 2000

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[Translation]

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco (Laval West, Lib.)): Good afternoon everyone. This is the third meeting of the Joint Committee on Official Languages. I'd like to begin by extending my apologies to my Senate colleagues. I think you already know that there is a vote scheduled to take place in the House of Commons in a few minutes and that there were some questions in the House, immediately following Question Period, which explains why I was late in arriving.

Senator Losier-Cool won't be with us this afternoon.

Since there are ten minutes remaining before the scheduled vote, with my colleagues' indulgence, I'd like to begin by introducing Mr. Richard Dupuis who will be subbing for our clerk Ms. Clairette Bourque for the next few weeks. Ms. Bourque is on holidays.

Secondly, you will recall that on December 7 last, the following motion was put before our committee for consideration:

That the Committee accept the documents of the witnesses as tabled and that the Committee do now adjourn its proceedings until such time as the Minister of Justice can appear before the Committee.

The issue here was clearly the appearance of the Justice Minister. I was away due to illness and upon my return, I realized that this motion could be interpreted at least two, and perhaps more, ways. After discussing the matter with several senators and MPs on the committee, I propose, since we have a quorum, that we go with the following interpretation. Obviously, we're prepared to discuss the matter. What the committee really was trying to achieve, by way of this motion, was to compel the Minister of Justice to appear before the committee and not to go along with Justice Department officials appearing in her place. If I understood correctly, that was the motivation of the mover of the motion.

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If that is in fact the case, then I'm prepared to move a second motion. Before we proceed with a second motion that would make it possible for us to proceed with our workplan and to hear subsequently from the Honourable Lucienne Robillard, the President of the Treasury Board and the Minister responsible for Infrastructure, do members wish to debate the motion introduced on December 7 last? I believe Senator Gauthier moved the motion. I'm sorry, but it was actually Mr. Plamondon. I'll reread it for you:

That the Committee accept the documents of the witnesses as tabled and the Committee do now adjourn its proceedings until such time as the Minister of Justice can appear before the Committee.

This motion was agreed to. As I see it, this means that committee members won't agree to Justice Department officials appearing before the committee. Rather, they want to hear from the Minister herself.

If there are no comments, I'll continue. The Minister, Ms. McLellan, responded to our invitation in a letter, a copy of which I believe all committee members received. Nevertheless, I will read it to you:

I am writing in response to your letter of December 22, 1999, inviting me to appear before the Standing Joint Committee on Official Languages in my capacity as Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada.

Your letter indicates that the purpose of this meeting would be to provide me with an opportunity to respond to concerns of Committee Members regarding sections 41 and 41 of the Official Languages Act.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier (Ontario, Lib.): Do members have a copy of the letter?

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): Yes, but I'm reading it for...

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: On a point of order.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): Yes, Senator Gauthier.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: To my knowledge, the letter that you're now reading was distributed to all committee members. Why then are you reading it?

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): If you prefer that I not read it, that's fine with me.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: [Editor's Note: Inaudible]

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): Thank you.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: It's not that you're not doing a fine job, but we are somewhat pressed for time.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): How kind of you to say that. I thought I might read the letter in case some members hadn't received it. If it's fine with everyone, I won't read it out loud.

The Minister advises us that for legal reasons, she is not authorized to appear before the committee and asks me to convey her regret to members. In this case, I propose that we wait until the Minister of Justice is able to appear, but that in the meantime, we proceed to hear from the President of the Treasury Board this very afternoon.

Senator, you have the floor.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: Madam Chair, I don't wish to repeat myself. The Minister's reason for not wanting to appear before the committee is that the matter is currently before the courts. She explains all of this in her letter.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): The matter is sub judice.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: It's quite simple. I learned today that the courts had adjourned their proceedings on this matter for one month. Therefore, it's clear that she won't be able to put in an appearance for at least one month.

The second point I wanted to make was that at our last meeting before Christmas, we objected to the fact that the witnesses, who were from Treasury Board, not the Justice Department, wanted to discuss with us the application of sections 41 and 42. I myself wondered which interpretation we were going with: that of the majority, which holds that section 41 of the Official Languages Act is binding, or that of the Justice Department, which maintains that it is declaratory. Which interpretation should hold in the case of the documents and evidence presented to this committee? That's the issue here. It's not a very complicated matter, but you appear to...

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): Senator, could I interrupt you for a moment?

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: I don't think you understood the gist of my comments at the last meeting.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): I wasn't at that meeting.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. I apologize.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): What I hoped to do this afternoon was to clarify the motion on which the committee had ruled on December 7 so that we could continue our work until such time as the Minister appears, which she has promised to do at the earliest opportunity.

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If there are no objections, I'd like to table a second motion which would read something to this effect:

That the Committee accept the letter received from the Minister of Justice explaining that the reason why she is unable to appear before the Committee at this time is due to the sub judice convention which prevents her from discussions that may influence the decisions of the courts. The Committee accepts the letter as fulfilling the conditions of the motion of December 7 and agrees to continue its workplan as proposed by the Sub-Committee on Agenda and Procedure.

In other words, we could go ahead with the workplan proposed by the sub-committee.

Senator Gauthier.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: Madam Chain, the notice of meeting for today, February 15, 2000, clearly states that on our agenda is the consideration of official languages policies and programs and that the Honourable Lucienne Robillard and other witnesses are appearing. There is no mention of the Minister of Justice.

We have two witnesses, Mr. Nouvet and Mr. Guénette, from the Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat. As far as I'm concerned, the matter is closed until such time as the Minister is no longer restricted from speaking because the matter of the interpretation of section 41 is before the courts.

The Treasury Board representatives who are here today can testify until the cows come home and that would be fine with me, but we can't discuss matters that are before the courts. As far as I know, this has been a parliamentary convention since 1867.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): That's fine, Senator.

Does anyone disagree with what Senator Gauthier has just said?

Go ahead, Senator Beaudoin.

Senator Gérald-A. Beaudoin (Rigaud, PC): We lawyers are accustomed to dealing with matters that are before the courts. Strictly speaking, the legislative branch of government is not subject to this restriction and could discuss such matters. However, traditionally it has refrained from so doing. I agree with my colleague Senator Gauthier and I'm prepared to go along with him on this.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): Fine. Thank you, Senator.

Since there are no dissenting opinions, I think we can continue with this afternoon's agenda and proceed to hear from the President of the Treasury Board, Lucienne Robillard.

On that note, I must return to the House of Commons where a vote is scheduled to take place in a few minutes. I trust I won't be too long. The Minister has agreed to return with me immediately following the vote. Therefore, honourable senators, I hope to be back soon with several other members as well.

Thank you.

The meeting is adjourned.