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37th PARLIAMENT, 2nd SESSION

Standing Joint Committee on the Library of Parliament

EVIDENCE

CONTENTS

Thursday, May 1, 2003

0915

The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett (St. Paul's, Lib.))

Mr. Paul Choquette (Director General, Services for Parliamentary Precinct, Department of Public Works and Government Services)

0925

The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett)

Mr. Paul Choquette

The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett)

Mr. Paul Choquette

Miss Deborah Grey (Edmonton North, Canadian Alliance)

Mr. Paul Choquette

Miss Deborah Grey

Mr. Paul Choquette

0930

Miss Deborah Grey

Mr. Paul Choquette

Ms. Mary Soper (Senior Project Leader, Planning and Capital Projects, Department of Public Works and Government Services)

Mr. Paul Choquette

Miss Deborah Grey

The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett)

Ms. Lynn Brodie (Director, Collections Division, Library of Parliament)

0935

The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett)

Mr. Marcel Gagnon (Champlain, BQ)

Mr. Paul Choquette

Mr. Marcel Gagnon

0940

Mr. Paul Choquette

Mr. Marcel Gagnon

Mr. Paul Choquette

Ms. Lynn Brodie

Mr. Marcel Gagnon

Ms. Lynn Brodie

Mr. Marcel Gagnon

Mr. Paul Choquette

Mr. Marcel Gagnon

The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett)

Mr. Rick Borotsik (Brandon—Souris, PC)

The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett)

Mr. Robert Bertrand (Pontiac—Gatineau—Labelle, Lib.)

Mr. Paul Choquette

Mr. Robert Bertrand

Mr. Paul Choquette

Mr. Robert Bertrand

Mr. Paul Choquette

Mr. Robert Bertrand

Ms. Lynn Brodie

0945

Mr. Paul Choquette

Mr. Robert Bertrand

Mr. Paul Choquette

Mr. Robert Bertrand

Mr. Paul Frame (Project Manager, Department of Public Works and Government Services)

Mr. Robert Bertrand

Mr. Paul Frame

Mr. Robert Bertrand

Mr. Paul Frame

Mr. Robert Bertrand

Mr. Paul Choquette

Mr. Robert Bertrand

The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett)

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Ms. Mary Soper

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Ms. Mary Soper

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Ms. Mary Soper

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Ms. Mary Soper

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Ms. Mary Soper

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Paul Choquette

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Paul Choquette

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Paul Frame

Mr. Paul Choquette

Mr. Rick Borotsik

0950

Ms. Lynn Brodie

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Ms. Lynn Brodie

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Ms. Lynn Brodie

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Paul Choquette

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Paul Choquette

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Paul Choquette

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Paul Choquette

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Paul Choquette

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Paul Choquette

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Paul Choquette

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett)

Ms. Wendy Lill (Dartmouth, NDP)

Ms. Lynn Brodie

0955

Ms. Wendy Lill

Mr. Paul Choquette

Ms. Lynn Brodie

The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett)

Ms. Lynn Brodie

The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett)

Miss Deborah Grey

1000

Ms. Lynn Brodie

Miss Deborah Grey

The Joint Chair (Senator Yves Morin (Lauzon, Lib.))

Miss Deborah Grey

The Joint Chair (Senator Yves Morin)

Ms. Lynn Brodie

The Joint Chair (Senator Yves Morin)

Miss Deborah Grey

The Joint Chair (Senator Yves Morin)

Miss Deborah Grey

Ms. Lynn Brodie

Miss Deborah Grey

Mr. Paul Choquette

Miss Deborah Grey

Mr. Paul Choquette

Miss Deborah Grey

Ms. Lynn Brodie

Miss Deborah Grey

Ms. Lynn Brodie

Miss Deborah Grey

Ms. Lynn Brodie

Miss Deborah Grey

Ms. Lynn Brodie

Miss Deborah Grey

Ms. Lynn Brodie

Miss Deborah Grey

Ms. Lynn Brodie

1005

Miss Deborah Grey

Ms. Lynn Brodie

Miss Deborah Grey

Ms. Lynn Brodie

Miss Deborah Grey

The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett)

CANADA

Standing Joint Committee on the Library of Parliament

NUMBER 003

2nd SESSION

37th PARLIAMENT

EVIDENCE

Thursday, May 1, 2003

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

¿ (0915)

[English]

The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett (St. Paul's, Lib.)): We'll just have an informal discussion about our little plans for the rest of the session, then when we get a senator, we can call to order. We don't have enough to vote anyway, so let's just reaffirm what the steering committee said.

I think we all agree that next week we will bring in the people from Compas, who did the survey of parliamentarians and their staff on the services and products piece. Then the next meeting we agreed would focus on the role of the Library of Parliament in the whole e-consultation piece and what we've learned from the disability committee and what we're trying to mainstream into other committees.

Stephen Coleman from Westminster will be here next week, from the Hansard Society and from LSE. He's now the first professor of e-democracy at Oxford. He's kicking around for the Crossing Boundaries Conference next week. If we could lasso him, we could switch the meetings maybe and get Stephen to come to committee, if he's around. He also wrote the book on the scrutiny role of Parliament. I think that has some impact in that he must have some view of the role that library researchers play in terms of the scrutiny of government by Parliament.

Anyway, if that's okay, we can switch the Compas guys with the e-consultation stuff and we could sort of move forward.

In the meantime, we could at least introduce our guests: from the Department of Public Works and Government Services, Paul Choquette, director general, services for parliamentary precinct; and Mary Soper, the senior project leader on planning and capital projects; and from the Library of Parliament, Lynn Brodie, director, collections division.

Welcome back. I think if the committee's happy, we can proceed without our upper chamber.

Mr. Paul Choquette (Director General, Services for Parliamentary Precinct, Department of Public Works and Government Services): Merci, madame la coprésidente, Dr. Bennett.

If it's agreeable to the committee, what I would propose to do is run through the French version of the deck that you have here and add to that any clarification and additional information in English to each slide that I give.

[Translation]

That being said, I will begin by giving you some context. We are at the second page of the document.

The Library of Parliament building has been deteriorating for a number of years. The last major renovation was done about 50 years ago, from 1952 to 1959. We have now reached the point where significant work is required to keep the building operational and to protect its heritage value. Moreover, the building is not meeting the Library's functional requirements.

This major rehabilitation requires that the building be vacant of any occupants and all activity. This made the creation of a “swing space” necessary. It must be pointed out that this is the very first project in the Parliamentary Precinct's long-term vision and plan.

[English]

So what does this all mean? Deterioration in this case means heritage fabric deterioration. It means deteriorated masonry, windows, roof, dome, woodwork, and the floors of this jewel of a building. During the site visit that most of you will be going through in the next few minutes, you will understand visually and fully what that means. We have roofs that leak, the building lacks gutters, there's no insulation, and there's no air vapour barrier. The windows leak and they're rusting and rotting. We have code issues for fire and life safety and seismic resistance, and informatics and security cabling and equipment are certainly out of date.

When we state that the library's functional requirements are not met, what we mean by that is that the library collections are being compromised by poor ventilation, humidity, temperature fluctuations, and water leaks. The basement ceiling height is too low for mechanical building systems and they interfere with book stacks. Client consultation areas are not functional and do not accommodate laptops. Staff areas are cramped and, in fact, they clutter the reading room. The area for public tours is too small. The staff access conflicts with the visitor access. The delivery access is not secure, and the elevator is too small and too slow.

In order to undertake this major renovation, the building has to be free of occupants and functions, because it's essential to do so for the safety of the people, the safety of the collections and the building fabric, and the continued operation of library services. It is less costly and less risky for construction and we have better quality control.

As I mentioned in French, this indeed is the very first project in the plan and vision for the Hill, the long-term plan and vision, which is a 25-year plan of major renovations and new construction that we embarked on last year. That could be the subject of another day, perhaps.

[Translation]

A certain number of project objectives had been outlined from the outset with Library representatives. I should mention that our relations with the Library have always been excellent. These objectives were the following: retain and enhance the building's heritage character; renew the building for 50 or more years; minimize disruptions to library services; meet professional library standards; provide a healthy work environment; enhance visitors' experience.

[English]

Let me clarify some of these objectives.

First, the heritage character of a building is defined by what's called the Federal Heritage Buildings Review Office, which is an arm of the Department of Canadian Heritage. It involves almost every feature of the building, but, above all, the heritage value of it remaining as a functional library.

Second, the disruption and the cost of moving the library staff and collections, users and visitors, and the fact that the building will continue to be needed in perpetuity warrants a 50-year-plus investment.

Third, enhancing the visitor experience will be achieved by providing more room for visitors during tourist season and improving the visual experience through the conservation work.

We also have a number of project management objectives. We wanted, for example, responsible hazardous material handling and waste management during construction. We wanted an effective schedule, claims and risk management. We wanted a partnered project with the library. Importantly, we wanted to record, through photos and videos, all aspects of the project and document it. We only do this once in a lifetime.

[Translation]

As to the scope of the project, to reply to some who may think that this is not an all-encompassing project, I would say that the entire building is involved; this is a complete project, from the weather vane to the basement. We will be doing ironwork repair and conservation, installing new copper roof and an upgraded roof structure. We will be doing a seismic upgrading of the dome and structure so that they will be more resistant to earthquakes. We will be repairing the windows and adding second interior windows. We will be conserving masonry. New wood parquet floor will be installed. We will repair and conserve pine book stacks. There will be more functional office areas and better user and tourist access. There will be more headroom in basement stack levels and more efficient mobile storage for collections. We will upgrade the mechanical systems for better humidity and temperature control: there will be a new basement mechanical level. Finally, we will upgrade the lighting, communication and security systems.

[English]

It would be useful to clarify three terms: conservation, rehabilitation, and upgrading. Conservation is the act of preserving what is there: the masonry, the woodwork, the windows. Rehabilitation is to repair what has been damaged over the life of the asset, and we're talking here basically of masonry and ironwork. And when we talk about upgrading, we mean meeting current standards and the future needs wherever possible; for example, improving the insulation, the vapour barrier in roof and window areas, increasing the seismic resistance in the dome structure and elsewhere, upgrading the life safety, the security, the informatics, the mechanical systems, the elevators, the basement space, the staff access, and the work stations.

So we'll be doing all three--conservation, rehabilitation, and upgrading--to this unique structure.

[Translation]

As for the project schedule, Treasury Board gave us its final approval in January 2002, a little more than a year ago. We prepared swing space locations that are now complete, occupied and functional, which I will talk about in a few moments. The main library building construction started in March 2002, with the work being done by the Fuller construction company. Target completion date is spring 2005, and Library personnel will be able to move back to the building in the summer of 2005.

[English]

It is a very ambitious schedule for a complex project, but we are very confident that we'll be able to deliver on this.

[Translation]

As to the swing space for core functions, the main premises are located at 125 Sparks Street, in the former Bank of Nova Scotia building, which was completely renovated and now houses Library staff and reference and core collections. For this renovation we received certain awards last year. We received an Ontario Association of Architects Award, Honourable Mention for Architectural Excellence, as well as a City of Ottawa Architectural Conservation Award, Certificate of Merit for adaptive reuse.

[English]

I'll give you a few details here. About 50 employees and three kilometres of collections--you stack up books one alongside the other--were moved to 125 Sparks Street, where the library currently has its main branch.

In terms of the awards received for the renovation to 125 Sparks, both awards recognize the challenge of taking the large open volume of the banking hall and turning it into a functioning library, while respecting the heritage character of that space and the creative way that the architects and our project team accomplished the task. If you have not had the opportunity to visit the current main library location at 125 Sparks, that could be very easily arranged, and you do not need a hard hat or boots to do that.

[Translation]

In the other temporary location, the rest of the collection, i.e., 13 kilometres of collection, and some staff members, were relocated to 45 Sacré-Coeur in Gatineau, which is the former building of the National Printing Bureau, where the Library already had its lesser-used collections. The offices of the Parliamentary Librarian, Mr. Paré, were relocated to the sixth floor of Centre Block, and a temporary branch Library-reading room were created on the first floor of Centre Block.

[English]

You should note that there is a further 13 kilometres of collections now in Gatineau at the former national printing plant at 45 Sacré-Coeur.

[Translation]

Of course, investments were required to carry out this major rehabilitation. The total project cost is $116 million. The cost of the renovation of the main building is $90 million, while the accommodation of the swing space at 125 Sparks and at 45 Sacré-Coeur Street cost $19 million, in keeping with the amounts that had been provided for in the budget.

This work has had an impact on Parliament Hill. Firstly, visitor access to the Library from March 2002 to the summer of 2005 has been interrupted. Secondly, the construction has an impact on the area north of the Centre Block, such as on traffic and parking. We have had to move 33 parking areas that belong to the House and to the Senate. Thirdly, traffic, noise and dust are tightly controlled. In order to let the public know what is happening inside, we publish photographs on the project and its progress on the Parliament Hill website at the following address: www.parliamenthill.gc.ca. We have, I believe, appended a series of photos to the documentation which give you a good idea of what is currently happening within the Library. We update these photographs on a daily basis on the website, as well as the information on the progress of the work.

[English]

To compensate for the loss of true access, the library has installed a display and model in the Hall of Honour. The model shows a cross-section of the building after the work is completed. Each summer, there's also a short DVD about the library project continuously running in the info tent outside, and this is updated each spring.

Traffic and regulation rules were worked out with the Senate and House of Commons' administration staff. Noisy work is done at night and on weekends to avoid any disruptions to the House. Dust from the masonry work is contained within the scaffolding enclosure, and we have very close ties maintained with the House and the Senate and administrative staff to monitor.

[Translation]

Finally, in any major project, challenges do arise. In this case, the challenges were multiplied because of the building's unique structure and potential for unexpected site conditions. To help us, we have the privilege of regular oversight by the Oversight Advisory Committee of the Parliamentary Precinct Plan, an independent committee that reports to Minister Ralph Goodale and is chaired by the Honourable John Fraser; the former Auditor General, Denis Desautels, sits on that committee. We are being monitored very closely throughout the renovations and we find this beneficial.

Another challenge is the significance of the project in the life of this important Canadian cultural asset. We need to balance site safety and security with our desire to inform the public.

[English]

Finally, one of our greatest challenges has been regarding the installation of what you visibly see outside, the white fabric, which covers a portion of the library scaffolding and soon will cover the library in its entirety. We will be installing three banners on this fabric once it is completely installed in a few weeks. The banners will provide a visual of what the library exterior will look like once the work is completed, and inside what is going on during the construction stage.

[Translation]

Madam Joint Chair, Mr. Joint Chair, this concludes my remarks. Mary and I are available to reply to your questions. If your questions are too difficult for me, Paul Frame, the manager of the project, the person who is responsible for it on a day-to-day basis, will reply. I thank you.

¿ (0925)

[English]

The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): Thank you very much.

Maybe Deb or Grant would start. Our original question that I'd hoped would be in the presentation was in terms of that budget, how it was established and whether that's the right budget and whether that's something for your advisory committee. But maybe that's what Deb was going to ask.

Do you want to just tell us really how you came to that, because I think that's really the reason for this hearing.

Mr. Paul Choquette: My understanding of the initial reason is that it might have been a reporter who had said that these folks were doing a half job.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): Yes.

Mr. Paul Choquette: I hope that with what I presented that is not the case. We're doing a very total job.

The budget was established over time through a series of consultant studies. We hired consultants to assist our professionals in-house in evaluating the deterioration of all of the systems in the building, whether the building systems, the structure, the envelope, the masonry, the stonework, the windows. And yet the best possible evaluation of the deterioration is what it would take in costs and manpower in hours to renovate the building and to bring it back to its original intent. And it's through the series of studies that we were able in 2001 and 2002, when we went to Treasury Board, to finalize what we call an effective project approval which has provided us with the moneys that we are most hopeful will be sufficient to complete the job in 2005.

Miss Deborah Grey (Edmonton North, Canadian Alliance): Thank you very much for this project.

I think each one of us, every time we go by or have constituents down, is sad that we don't get a chance to wander into the library, because it's such a great experience.

One wonders how you ever come up with a budget for things like this. We just shingled our roof at home, and it obviously goes over budget and over time to do a few hundred square feet, so I don't know how you even get to a project like this. There is the swing space--$19 million--where it says, “Note: Completed within budget” on page 8. It's almost like this is the surprise when something comes in within budget. So I'm hoping we're able to get that asterisk on the $90 million as well when it actually happens.

Tell me how realistic it will be to have the project completed by spring 2005. My little roofing project was supposed to take two days and it took five, for instance, because we had to fiddle around with three skylights. And that's a pretty small project. Are you hopeful? Are you close?

Mr. Paul Choquette: As I indicated, this project is being monitored extremely closely. I chair a steering committee monthly with the team members, and we scrutinize the finances and the schedule. Our schedule, as of last month, indicates we will be able to complete this project--unless something drastic happens--certainly by March 2005, and we're trying to advance that to January 2005.

Miss Deborah Grey: Okay, good. And it's always good to keep the thing rolling and watch it really carefully, scrutinizing it month by month. But of course it's been so long. You have 1952 to 1954 here. I was born in 1952, and I think now I could use a few renovations and updating myself. But there are always surprises when you dig into something and you think, holy smokes, there's a serious problem here, where we have to do something or other structural to it.

So good on you for trying to keep the thing on budget and on time, for sure.

Mr. Paul Choquette: If I may add, you're quite right on the point and you just hit on the excavation part. The riskiest part of the renovations right now is the excavation--the rock excavation--that's occurring right now. This is highly complex. You have to support the library structure while you're digging underground to add two floors. Currently, those of you who see it will be seeing a huge hole right now under the library. What they may or may not tell you--but I'll be there--is that as of last Friday we still had 27 feet to dig. The rock, in some cases, is unstable. It's supposed to be very stable on the Hill here, but in some cases it's unstable and there are cracks, and it's a real unknown to us. We're very hopeful and confident that this will not detract from the schedule and the cost.

¿ (0930)

Miss Deborah Grey: I'm sure people can appreciate that.

Tell me, logistically, out back where that huge hole was a few summers ago where they were doing technical jazz down inside the ground--how close physically are those two excavations going to be?

Mr. Paul Choquette: In fact, a trench--a tunnel--has been dug between where the library is right now and what is called the CBUS, the Centre Block underground services area. I would dare say it's something like 20 feet.

Mary.

Ms. Mary Soper (Senior Project Leader, Planning and Capital Projects, Department of Public Works and Government Services): Yes, and the tunnel will eventually break through into CBUS, because the idea is to have delivery through the House of Commons delivery area down into CBUS and then directly into the library.

Mr. Paul Choquette: There'll be an access directly from the CBUS through the library.

Miss Deborah Grey: Okay, good.

Yes, that's great. That'll do for now. Thank you.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): The chair would like to excuse herself for having eliminated Ms. Brodie's presentation from the library point of view. So, Deborah, if you have a question after that, too, then we'll go back around to the question.

Ms. Lynn Brodie (Director, Collections Division, Library of Parliament): Thank you, Ms. Bennett. I just assumed that maybe you wanted to take the questions in between the two presentations, so I didn't feel slighted at all.

[Translation]

Thank you for giving me the opportunity of speaking to you about the renovations to the Library building. I would first like to share with you the planning principles set out by the Library for its long-term plans, for the main Library building or the other buildings it occupies.

We wanted to ensure that the Library would be able to better serve its clientele, including the public at large. We wanted appropriate space for staff and services, so that they might respond effectively, accurately and quickly to clients' requests. We wanted to stimulate interaction among the functional sectors of the Library so as to better meet the needs of parliamentarians and of the other clients while taking their situation into account.

We wanted to comply with federal guidelines established expressly for libraries, provide employees with work spaces adapted to their duties and in compliance with existing work place health and safety guidelines. We of course wanted to use existing technology and have the necessary flexibility to adopt those that might come on stream later. We also wanted to enrich the infrastructure and put it at the disposal of visitors so that it might in the best possible way meet their needs in terms of accessibility and security. This also applies to Library activities.

Finally, we wanted to support and strengthen security procedures and measures in order to protect clients, staff and visitors and provide effective services.

[English]

Those were the planning principles, and now you'll be able to see the reality at 10 o'clock when you go on the tour.

The decision to undertake a comprehensive restoration of the library building presented a unique opportunity for the library to redefine and to modernize its operations. To maximize this opportunity, a vision for the renovated library was developed and a statement was formalized in 1998.

The following vision provided the framework that guided the decision-making from the concept stages and design development plans to the construction you'll witness today. Our vision is premised on two points. I apologize, as some of this is a little bit repetitious of what Paul has said. The library is an essential component of the parliamentary process and some of its core functions will remain in the prominent and pivotal location of the library building on Parliament Hill. We also believe that the collections continue to be vital to the mission and mandate of the Library of Parliament, and their custody is a significant responsibility.

The new, renovated library building will function as a large branch library with a specialized collection and a repository for valuable and historic collections. A reception desk and consultation tables reminiscent of the original design will enable staff to provide personalized reference and consultation services to parliamentarians, using the most up-to-date technology. A parliamentary reading room will be reinstated in the ring and will offer both Houses convenient, current, and comfortable access to information. It will offer an important collection of reference works, newspapers, and periodicals, as well as a small non-fiction collection, and these will be available in both electronic and print format.

Staff will continue to provide the highest level of service to parliamentarians to support and assist them in their work. The new work areas for staff, located in the perimeter areas, will be designed to proper standards for health and safety. They'll be more functional and they'll have ergonomic workstations.

In recognition of the library's more recent mandate to provide information about Parliament to the general public, the area devoted to tourists will be enhanced. There'll be an expanded area for visitors as well as display cases and exhibits during the summer and during electoral periods. Provision will also be made within the building to accommodate the parliamentary public programs, including space for the guides, the Parliament Hill Players, and some of the functions of the parliamentary boutique.

I'd like to underline that there is a very strong working partnership. We've been very fortunate to have the assistance and support of Public Works and Government Services in helping us to achieve this vision for the functional design of the historic building. The architects, engineers, and specialists in joint venture have interpreted this vision in a very practical way, and as clients of Public Works, we've so far been very satisfied with the proposed plans. Public Works has respected our expertise in matters relating to the field of library and information science and our particular requirements, especially with regard to lighting, environmental controls and shelving.

I'd also like to underline the support provided to the library by the House of Commons long-term architectural planning office, with respect especially to matters relating to technology, and in this range is everything from security hardware for the doors to desktop network access.

There's frequent and significant consultation amongst the stakeholders--that is, the Senate, the House of Commons, Public Works, and the library--on all matters relating to the renovations.

In conclusion, our plan calls for the main library to remain a place that parliamentarians can call their library, a library that continues to serve them as a modern legislative information provider within the parliamentary precinct.

That concludes my presentation.

I'd like to introduce Lisette Comeau, who is our architectural consultant, and Joan Dorsay, who is our renovations coordinator. They've worked very closely with Mary Soper and Paul Frame through the renovation of the main library and the numerous swing spaces that have been renovated over the last three years. If you have any questions I can't answer, hopefully they'll be able to help me.

¿ (0935)

Thank you.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): Monsieur Gagnon.

[Translation]

Mr. Marcel Gagnon (Champlain, BQ): Firstly, I would like to say that this presentation surprised me a little. Thank you. It isn't easy to ask questions on such complex work, which requires, as you pointed out Mr. Choquette, some very talented specialists.

Nevertheless, I would like to know who the contractors were. What type of specialists did you find, for instance, who were able to dig under an already existing building to create two new floors? I saw something similar during the big project in James Bay, at LG-2, for instance. Were these the same type of contractors?

Mr. Paul Choquette: Exactly. To excavate rock, we called on geotechnical experts. For the structure itself, we needed mechanical engineers, electrical engineers and ventilation experts. We also retained the services of conservation experts, experts in the conservation of masonry and woodwork. I am referring here to a host of specialists who are not easy to find.

We also put out calls for tender. We hired a chief consultant for the general planning of the work; he in turn hired Fuller construction, the subcontractor, but a series of other consultants and specialists were also involved; their assistance was needed in the context of such a complex renovation.

Mr. Marcel Gagnon: Have there been any major incidents up till now? We know that in any large, specialized work of this type, fairly unpleasant surprises can sometimes crop up. Up till now, have things unfolded fairly well on the worksite?

¿ (0940)

Mr. Paul Choquette: Yes; however, we did have a problem involving fissures in the rock in certain places during the excavation; we had to get around that and solidify the structure in order to continue the excavation, and it was very delicate work. This did cause certain delays, but we have in large measure made up the lost time.

Mr. Marcel Gagnon: As you mentioned, you have a number of priceless volumes. Can it be said that the shock of transportation did not damage these items and that consequences were minor? Were you able to save all of your treasures?

Mr. Paul Choquette: I am not the expert in this area; so I will ask Lynn or Mary to answer that question. But as far as I know, the collections that had to be moved were not damaged in any way. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Ms. Lynn Brodie: To my knowledge, there was no damage, especially because we made sure before the move that the books were protected in conservation boxes and repaired if need be.

Finally, in several cases, approximately 16 kilometres or more of collections were moved from one area to another, before being stored in a final location.

Mr. Marcel Gagnon: Did this give you an opportunity to restore them, to some extent?

Ms. Lynn Brodie: Precisely. I am very grateful to Public Works Canada, which allowed us to do this work; this was not provided for in our regular budgets.

Mr. Marcel Gagnon: In light of what you had asked for, and the information you have provided us, we can assume that the work will be completed within budget, within the total budget granted by Treasury Board of $109 million.

Mr. Paul Choquette: It is my responsibility to see to it that timeframes and budgets are respected; I do everything that is necessary to make that possible. The only bump in the road, as for any major project of this type, especially unique and complex work like this—this is a building that is unique on the continent—is that there are always some unexpected things that crop up. We aren't expecting the unexpected, but we are keeping our fingers crossed. I am hopeful that we will complete the work within budget.

Mr. Marcel Gagnon: Thank you very much.

[English]

The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): Robert, and then Wendy.

Rick, did you have a question?

Mr. Rick Borotsik (Brandon—Souris, PC): Yes.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): Okay. Robert, Rick, Wendy, and then back to Deb.

[Translation]

Mr. Robert Bertrand (Pontiac—Gatineau—Labelle, Lib.): Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I have a few brief questions for you, Mr. Choquette. Who owns the building at 125 Sparks?

Mr. Paul Choquette: The building belongs to Public Works. It is the former Bank of Nova Scotia building.

Mr. Robert Bertrand: And who owns the building at 45 Sacré-Coeur Street in Gatineau?

Mr. Paul Choquette: It also belongs to Public Works.

Mr. Robert Bertrand: In your budget, $19 million were allocated for temporary premises. Was that money not used to pay for our own buildings?

Mr. Paul Choquette: No. It was used for a complete renovation of these two buildings: the conversion of a bank into a library, at 125 Sparks, and the conversion of part of the building at 45 Sacré-Coeur Street so that we could store some collections there.

Mr. Robert Bertrand: Do you intend to use the renovated premises in the former Bank of Nova Scotia building to store other books in 2005, or should we consider that money lost?

Ms. Lynn Brodie: In 2005, the Library will continue to occupy premises at 125 Sparks. Previously, approximately 61 employees worked in the main building on the Hill, and only 17 will be going back to that building full-time. The other employees will stay at 125 Sparks and a few will work in the Promenade building at 151 Sparks. To preserve the main Library so that we can receive more visitors and to ensure that the premises comply with labour standards, we were asked to have fewer people work there.

¿ (0945)

Mr. Paul Choquette: So the Library will continue to use the offices at 125 Sparks for its purposes, at least for a certain number of years.

Mr. Robert Bertrand: I don't know if you can answer me, Mr. Choquette, but are there workers from Quebec on the site at this time?

Mr. Paul Choquette: I'm sure there are.

[English]

Mr. Robert Bertrand: Paul, are there workers from the Quebec side on the site?

Mr. Paul Frame (Project Manager, Department of Public Works and Government Services):

I believe that at least some of the subconsultants and subcontractors are. I'm not sure of the exact number.

[Translation]

Mr. Robert Bertrand: I believe that the law in Ontario...

[English]

Paul, do you want to come up to the microphone so the translation folks can hear you?

Mr. Paul Frame: Sure.

Mr. Robert Bertrand: You can just repeat your answer.

Mr. Paul Frame: Okay. I'm new to this.

I believe there are probably some subcontractors and subconsultants, but I can't give you a number offhand.

[Translation]

Mr. Robert Bertrand: As you know, there was a law in Ontario that prevented Quebec workers from coming to work on this side. I would like to know whether federal institutions are exempted from the application of that law.

Mr. Paul Choquette: We are not exempt from that law. It caused problems for us at one point, but those problems have been resolved. We could give you an idea of the number of workers who come from Quebec. I live on the Quebec side and I can tell you that I see a large number of workers' trucks heading for Ontario very early in the morning to come to work here or on other construction sites. There is a balance, however; the traffic flows both ways.

Mr. Robert Bertrand: Thank you very much.

[English]

The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): Rick.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Thank you.

First of all, let me preface my remarks by saying that I think you're doing a wonderful job, as Ms. Grey indicated. It's a building that I think certainly has a lot of heritage with respect to our Parliament Buildings.

Renovations are always a surprise. Renovation work is much more difficult to do than new construction, as I'm sure Paul recognizes. You've already identified one of the surprises that you found with the excavation and I'm sure you're going to find other surprises. Out of the $90 million, what is your contingency budget in that particular budget?

Ms. Mary Soper: It's about $17 million.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: It's $17 million in contingency. I'm sure you're aware that the Justice Building just underwent a renovation and had substantial over-budget costs, cost overruns. Are you currently signing an awful lot of change notices from the original documents and specifications and plans? Are you anticipating the $17 million contingency plan to be sufficient to cover off any of the surprises?

A voice: Yes.

Ms. Mary Soper: Can I just comment on the Justice Building?

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Sure. That's an example we can use. Perhaps not a good example, but it's one we can use.

Ms. Mary Soper: No, I'd like to clarify, because I was the project leader for the Justice Building, so I know some of the surprises you can have. In fact, that project was under budget.

Yes, a number of things came up at the end, but they were all paid for within the contingency.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: What was the original...? Well, we're not here for Justice, but we'll talk about that later, okay?

Ms. Mary Soper: Just to let you know, there is a misconception out there that it was over budget. It was not; it was under budget.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: What was the total budget cost of Justice?

Ms. Mary Soper: It was $19.6 million for the main building, not counting the furniture, which is a separate issue.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Okay, forget about the misconceptions. The $17 million in contingency plans you have now for the library, is that sufficient?

Mr. Paul Choquette: It's sufficient. It's part of the $116 million total, and we will respect that.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Are you signing change notices currently?

Mr. Paul Choquette: Yes.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: And well within your suggestions.

Mr. Paul Frame: We're trying to stay within that at this point in time, and we are seeing a number of changes here and there. As Paul mentioned, particularly with the rock we had some issues, but beyond that we haven't had any major issues yet.

Mr. Paul Choquette: So one year into the actual renovation, that's where we are.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Also, as Monsieur Bertrand had suggested, I was going to ask about life after 125 Sparks. You've touched on that, and I appreciate it.

Obviously when you did your $19 million renovations in 125 Sparks, you planned for the future. You planned for the library to exist in there, to continue in there, and sufficient space. You said that of the 61 people who are currently in there--and I think those are the numbers--17 will return to the Hill and the remainder will stay at 125 Sparks. Is that what I was led to believe?

¿ (0950)

Ms. Lynn Brodie: That's right. There used to be 61 full-time positions in the main library. There will be 17 full-time who return to the main library. However, there is a large number of rotational and part-time staff who will occupy spaces in the main library.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: In 2005 when the library is reopened, will there be a net gain of staff? Will there be a positive gain of permanent employees?

Ms. Lynn Brodie: Not at all.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: So the 61 are there currently. Of the 61 who will remain--

Ms. Lynn Brodie: The 61 have been spread out between 125 Sparks. Some of the staff are at 151 Sparks in the Promenade Building, and in 2005 they would be split between those two buildings, of the people who are not going back to the main library.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Just as an aside, what is the next project after 2005, in the big scheme of the renovations and construction on the House?

Mr. Paul Choquette: Well, I just happen to have--

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Son of a gun, I thought maybe you might have.

Mr. Paul Choquette: I didn't mention one thing. This is the very first project in the 25-year vision and plan for the Hill.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: And the question was what's the next step?

Mr. Paul Choquette: Our next big project, which has been announced, is the creation of the new building currently called the Bank Street Building. The creation of that will start in 2005, completion in 2009.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Are you going out to tender on that?

Mr. Paul Choquette: Yes.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Have you gone out to tender?

Mr. Paul Choquette: Not yet. We're still in the planning stages.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Working drawings complete?

Mr. Paul Choquette: No.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Not even close.

Mr. Paul Choquette: No, no. We've done a prototype of a committee room and some of the members may have been privy to that. It's in the warehouse in Gatineau right now.

In conjunction with the House, we've gone to a consultant on multimedia for committee rooms. That building will have 12 committee rooms and 39 offices for senators. As I said, the plan right now is to start the actual construction of that in 2005.

There are other projects. There's a renovation for the Wellington Building, renovation to La Promenade Building, masonry on the East Block. We're creating offices for senators right now. There is a series of projects over the 25 years.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Thank you.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): Wendy Lill.

Ms. Wendy Lill (Dartmouth, NDP): Thank you for coming in.

I want to pick up on Monsieur Gagnon's questions about the collections. I'm concerned about how the books are doing, and I have this image of these kilometres of books travelling across Wellington. It's kind of an arresting image.

I'm interested in knowing the relationship between the National Library and the Library of Parliament. I sit on the heritage committee, and very regularly we have Roch Carrier, we have people from the library--not regularly and not as regularly as I'd like--come to talk about the dire straits facing their collections, leaky warehouses in Hull, and images of books--like acidification of pages--and just terrible things. I want to know whether you're facing the same kinds of problems.

I'm also very stunned that we're talking big money here. These are huge figures, and I'd like to have some comparison about budgets the National Library operates under and the Library of Parliament operates under in terms of protection of collections and accumulation of collections. Just tell me anything you can about those kinds of things.

I guess those are more questions to Lynn and to the experts she has with her.

Ms. Lynn Brodie: We face similar problems in terms of the actual books deteriorating, the acidification. We obviously have similar problems with respect to water infiltration. However, we're not in dire straits because we're being renovated at the moment. We hope that any of those problems that may have been ours before 2002, when we go back to the main library in 2005, will no longer be issues for us because the building envelope will be properly sealed and there will be appropriate environmental conditions for the books and other materials in the main library.

They've already done a significant amount of work at 45 Sacré-Coeur in Gatineau, so we feel the books are quite well protected where they're currently housed there.

Clearly, there are a lot of issues with respect to preserving our book collections. We don't have a significant budget for our bindery, but we do as much as we can every year. We have been able to do more as a result of this renovation project because we realized that before we set out to move these books we actually had to protect them. I think we did a fairly good job with that, and we're still working on that. We feel a number of those books still have to be moved, to come back to the main library, because, as I mentioned, we're going to be moving our secure collection, which includes our rare books, our precious books, books that are difficult to replace, preservation collections of parliamentary publications--all will be moving to the main library, where they'll be, we believe, very well protected and stored.

As for the National Library, I think what I need to clarify is that we're really here to provide service to parliamentarians. Our collection, in many ways, may resemble parts of what the National Library has, but the National Library's mandate is to collect everything written by Canadians, about Canadians, published in Canada, and they have legal deposit. We used to have legal deposit until 1952 and acted as a de facto national library, but since then we have ceased, and right now we collect material that's of interest to members of Parliament, to provide for your needs, not to provide for a national information need.

I don't know if that addresses some of your questions.

¿ (0955)

Ms. Wendy Lill: Well, I am interested, though, in knowing whether there's any kind of crossover. We do have some spaces now that have been renovated at great cost--$19 million to these swing spaces. Is that space going to be available for the National Library and their dire straits? Are there talks going on? We're all talking about the same thing: we're talking about protection of books. Does the right hand know what the left hand is doing? I'd like to know that people are working together on these issues.

Mr. Paul Choquette: We're not in a position, obviously, at this meeting to give you any answers on the National Library and what is happening there. I know for a fact there are serious discussions going on about the location, where the National Library is, whether that's appropriate or not, whether that building should be entirely renovated or not, and if, in the long term, that's where they should reside or not. But, yes, because of the issues--they've had major issues over the last few years--there are serious discussions going on right now.

Ms. Lynn Brodie: I'd also like to add to that the when we were looking for a place to our collections while we were out of the main library, one of the buildings that were given serious consideration was the preservation centre in Gatineau, which belongs, as you know, to the National Archives. They have a number of vaults there and they were, at one point, willing to have us occupy some space in their building, but the timeframe simply didn't work. They needed us out of there before we new that we'd be able to move back into the main library.

But there is enough discussion between the National Library and us, and I think they're aware of what we're doing, just as we're aware of the fact that they need space.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): On Wendy's point, looking forward, if form follows function, if there were to be a more formal collaboration in the future between the National Library and.... I think it is something this committee wants to look at in terms of the heft of a Library of Congress that is available to all Americans. In what you have now, what capacity would there be if eventually we wanted these entities to come together in a much more formal cooperation and collaboration in terms of the form that would follow that new function?

Ms. Lynn Brodie: That's a difficult question to address at this time because the National Library and National Archives are working toward merging, and I'm not privy to those discussions. So looking toward the future is a little difficult from my perspective now. There are certainly possibilities for closer ties in the CRS Library of Congress model, but that would require a considerable amount of work and consultation, I would think.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): Deb.

Miss Deborah Grey: Thank you.

Thank you for your presentation, and it's good to see you again.

I'm not sure if we measure this in volume or kilometres, but how many books do we have? What's the total of volume, or length?

À (1000)

Ms. Lynn Brodie: We don't like addressing that question and we have gone back to the number of linear metres, or linear kilometres, simply because the number of books is really dependent on how you go about counting them. That sounds like a simplistic answer, but really it's a case of whether I count each issue of Maclean's as a book, or do I look at the fact that earlier years were bound, and the 52 issues have now become one book. How do I deal with microfiche and microfilm?

So we really don't like to look at how many physical books there are. There are a lot.

Miss Deborah Grey: Thanks.

The Joint Chair (Senator Yves Morin (Lauzon, Lib.)): Is that millions or hundreds of thousands or thousands, just to have a general idea? What's the round figure?

Miss Deborah Grey: Lots.

The Joint Chair (Senator Yves Morin): No, but that was a fair question.

Ms. Lynn Brodie: I'd take a stab in the over a million.

The Joint Chair (Senator Yves Morin): Over a million.

Miss Deborah Grey: That sounds safe, then, doesn't it?

The Joint Chair (Senator Yves Morin) Give or take a million.

Miss Deborah Grey: You're not talking a million kilometres here?

Ms. Lynn Brodie: No.

Miss Deborah Grey: Okay, good. Sorry, I didn't mean that to be facetious.

The National Library versus the Library of Parliament. Would you consider it to be in dire straits?

Mr. Paul Choquette: In terms of structure?

Miss Deborah Grey: Well, water problems.

Mr. Paul Choquette: I can only indicate what all of us have read in the papers. I'm not responsible for that building, so I don't have the information. It's not in a good situation.

Miss Deborah Grey: Okay, so then as a librarian, does it hurt your heart to see what's going on there?

Ms. Lynn Brodie: Yes, it does.

Miss Deborah Grey: Okay, thank you.

You said earlier that there were 61 people hither and yon--17 full-time will be returning here. Do they draw lots as to who gets to work in this wonderful library, or who are the 17? Is there some--

Ms. Lynn Brodie: The parliamentary librarian and his executive staff will be returning. There will be reference staff, so reference librarians, reference technicians.

There'll be reading room staff who manage the newspaper collection and periodical collection.

There will be staff to ensure the maintenance of the collection who retrieve the books, return them to the shelves and so on, and staff to do clerical jobs--the photocopying, faxing and so on and so forth.

There will be staff from the parliamentary boutique, the manager and support staff. There will be storage for the boutique under the roof of the library.

There will also be the parliamentary guides and their supervisor. The actors and the person who supervises and manages that program will also be in the main library, and there'll be a number of rotational positions that will come to the library as work requires it.

I should say that the balance of the people who are not really going back, most of them, are at 125 Sparks.

Miss Deborah Grey: That sounds way more than 17, but that's good.

You said also there'd be no increase in staff, but we want staff to do this and then we're going to have all this e-communication. When I was teaching school they said, great, you're going to teach this, this, this--career and life management. And we said, wonderful, what are we going to drop in order to teach this? And they said we would drop nothing.

So are we expecting x amount of staff to do x amount of work, plus y, all the new stuff?

Ms. Lynn Brodie: Yes.

Miss Deborah Grey: Okay, there we are.

Ms. Lynn Brodie: Yes, more or less.

Miss Deborah Grey: Just one last question. This idea of more space in the main library, is it going to be on the main floor, where you can go in and read the paper and do whatever?

Ms. Lynn Brodie: Yes, it will be.

Miss Deborah Grey: Okay, so that little gate fence will be pushed back or something?

Ms. Lynn Brodie: Actually, I'm glad you mentioned the little gate fence, because there won't be a gate or a solid fence to prevent tourists from coming in. We're going back to the model reminiscent of the sort in 1876 when the library opened, where the reference and consultation desk--the people who are working there--will be in a circular area around the statue of Queen Victoria. There will be mobile gates, or cords if you will, to prevent the tourists from going further beyond that area, and those gates will be movable so that during the summer period they can be moved back and the tourists can occupy more space.

The reading room area will be behind the Queen Victoria statue in the alcoves at the very back, so fairly well hidden from the tourists. There will be easy chairs, appropriate lighting. It'll be a more relaxed area. They'll also be able to plug in laptops or whatever other technology--

À (1005)

Miss Deborah Grey: So it's sort of like the Chapters idea.

Ms. Lynn Brodie: A little.

Miss Deborah Grey: Okay. Now, for revenue generating, we then need a Starbucks franchise there so people can just have coffee and read.

Ms. Lynn Brodie: If you would like a Starbucks franchise, I'm sure we could--

Voices: Oh, oh!

Miss Deborah Grey: That would be excellent. You could make some cash too, Paul. This is a good thing.

Okay, I'm done.

A voice: You could open a bar too.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): Like Westminster, right, and the patio at the back?

Thank you very, very much. I think we feel much better about all of this. We do thank you for coming.

Now we're looking forward to our little tour.

As we decided before, the committee will meet next week, hopefully. We'll send a notice.

Thanks. This meeting is adjourned.