LIPA Committee Meeting
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37th PARLIAMENT, 2nd SESSION
Standing Joint Committee on the Library of Parliament
EVIDENCE
CONTENTS
Thursday, March 27, 2003
| ¿ | 0915 |
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The Joint Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Denis Robert) |
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Senator Roch Bolduc (Golfe, PC) |
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The Joint Clerk (Mr. Denis Robert) |
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Mrs. Karen Redman (Kitchener Centre, Lib.) |
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The Joint Clerk (Mr. Denis Robert) |
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The Joint Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Marc-Olivier Girard) |
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Mrs. Karen Redman |
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Mr. David Price (Compton—Stanstead, Lib.) |
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The Joint Clerk (Mr. Marc-Olivier Girard) |
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The Joint Clerk (Mr. Marc-Olivier Girard) |
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Mr. Ken Epp (Elk Island, Canadian Alliance) |
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The Joint Clerk (Mr. Marc-Olivier Girard) |
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The Joint Clerk (Mr. Marc-Olivier Girard) |
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The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett (St. Paul's, Lib.)) |
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Mrs. Karen Redman |
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The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett) |
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Mrs. Karen Redman |
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The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett) |
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The Joint Clerk (Mr. Marc-Olivier Girard) |
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The Joint Clerk (Mr. Denis Robert) |
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Mr. Marcel Gagnon (Champlain, BQ) |
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The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett) |
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Mr. Marcel Gagnon |
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The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett) |
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Mr. Ken Epp |
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The Joint Clerk (Mr. Marc-Olivier Girard) |
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The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett) |
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Mr. Ken Epp |
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The Joint Clerk (Mr. Marc-Olivier Girard) |
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Mr. Ken Epp |
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The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett) |
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Mr. Ken Epp |
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The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett) |
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Mr. Ken Epp |
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Ms. Marlene Catterall (Ottawa West—Nepean, Lib.) |
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The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett) |
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Ms. Marlene Catterall |
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The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett) |
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Ms. Marlene Catterall |
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Mr. Ken Epp |
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Ms. Marlene Catterall |
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The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett) |
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Ms. Marlene Catterall |
| ¿ | 0920 |
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The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett) |
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Mr. Ken Epp |
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Ms. Marlene Catterall |
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The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett) |
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Mr. Ken Epp |
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The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett) |
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Ms. Marlene Catterall |
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The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett) |
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Mr. Ken Epp |
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The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett) |
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The Joint Clerk (Mr. Marc-Olivier Girard) |
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Ms. Marlene Catterall |
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The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett) |
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Senator Jean Lapointe (Saurel, Lib.) |
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The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett) |
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Mr. Marcel Gagnon |
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The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett) |
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Mr. Marcel Gagnon |
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The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett) |
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The Joint Chair (Senator Yves Morin (Lauzon, Lib.)) |
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The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett) |
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Ms. Marlene Catterall |
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The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett) |
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The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett) |
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Mrs. Karen Redman |
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The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett) |
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Mr. Jacques Saada (Brossard—La Prairie, Lib.) |
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The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett) |
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Senator Jean Lapointe |
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Mr. Ken Epp |
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The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett) |
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Mr. Ken Epp |
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The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett) |
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Senator Jean Lapointe |
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The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett) |
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Mrs. Karen Redman |
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The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett) |
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Mr. Julian Reed (Halton, Lib.) |
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The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett) |
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Mr. Jacques Saada |
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Mr. Marcel Gagnon |
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The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett) |
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Mr. Marcel Gagnon |
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The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett) |
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The Joint Chair (Senator Yves Morin |
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Mr. Marcel Gagnon |
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The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett) |
| ¿ | 0925 |
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The Joint Clerk (Mr. Marc-Olivier Girard) |
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The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett) |
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Ms. Marlene Catterall |
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The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett) |
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Ms. Marlene Catterall |
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The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett) |
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Mrs. Karen Redman |
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The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett) |
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The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett) |
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The Joint Clerk (Mr. Marc-Olivier Girard) |
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The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett) |
| ¿ | 0930 |
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Ms. Marlene Catterall |
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The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett) |
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Mr. James Robertson (Committee Researcher) |
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The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett) |
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Mr. Marcel Gagnon |
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The Joint Chair (Senator Yves Morin |
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Mr. Marcel Gagnon |
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The Joint Clerk (Mr. Marc-Olivier Girard) |
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The Joint Chair (Senator Yves Morin) |
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Mr. Marcel Gagnon |
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The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett) |
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Ms. Marlene Catterall |
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The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett) |
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Ms. Marlene Catterall |
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The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett) |
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The Joint Chair (Senator Yves Morin) |
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Ms. Marlene Catterall |
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Mr. James Robertson |
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The Joint Chair (Senator Yves Morin) |
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Mr. James Robertson |
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Senator Jean Lapointe |
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The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett) |
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The Joint Clerk (Mr. Marc-Olivier Girard) |
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Senator Roch Bolduc |
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The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett) |
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Mr. James Robertson |
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The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett) |
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The Joint Chair (Senator Yves Morin) |
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The Joint Chair |
CANADA
Standing Joint Committee on the Library of Parliament |
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EVIDENCE
Thursday, March 27, 2003
[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]
¿ 
(0915)
[Translation]
The Joint Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Denis Robert): Good day, ladies and gentlemen.
[English]
My name is Denis Robert, and I am the clerk from the Senate. My role is to preside over the election of the joint chair from the Senate.
[Translation]
Are there any nominations for the position of chair from the Senate?
Senator Roch Bolduc (Golfe, PC): I nominate Senator Morin.
The Joint Clerk (Mr. Denis Robert): Senator Bolduc, seconded by Senator Lapointe, nominates Senator Morin.
Are there any other nominations?
[English]
Seeing no other nominations, nominations are closed. Senator Morin is elected by acclamation.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear!
Mrs. Karen Redman (Kitchener Centre, Lib.): You couldn't lose.
The Joint Clerk (Mr. Denis Robert): My colleague from the House will now preside over the election of the joint chair from the House side.
[Translation]
The Joint Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Marc-Olivier Girard): We may now proceed to the election of the House of Commons joint chair of the committee, as well as to that of committee vice-chair,
[English]
and once the elections are completed, I will invite the newly elected joint chairs to preside over the meeting.
Are there any nominations for joint chair from the House of Commons?
Madame Redman.
Mrs. Karen Redman: I nominate Carolyn Bennett.
Mr. David Price (Compton—Stanstead, Lib.): I'll second that if it's required.
The Joint Clerk (Mr. Marc-Olivier Girard): Are there any more nominations? No? The nominations are now closed.
[Translation]
The motion submitted to the committee
[English]
is that Carolyn Bennett be elected joint chair of the Standing Joint Committee on the Library of Parliament.
Some hon. members: Agreed.
The Joint Clerk (Mr. Marc-Olivier Girard): We can now proceed to the election of the vice-chair from the opposition side. Are there any nominations?
Mr. Ken Epp (Elk Island, Canadian Alliance): I nominate Deborah Grey.
The Joint Clerk (Mr. Marc-Olivier Girard): Mr. Epp nominates Deborah Grey.
Are there any more nominations? No? Nominations are now closed.
[Translation]
The motion submitted to the committee is the following:
[English]
That Deborah Grey be elected vice-chair of the Standing Joint Committee on the Library of Parliament.
(Motion agreed to)
The Joint Clerk (Mr. Marc-Olivier Girard): Madame Bennett, go ahead.
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett (St. Paul's, Lib.)): We have a very important first order of business, which is to reduce the quorum for this committee.
Mrs. Karen Redman: Are other members coming?
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): There are a couple more, just in terms of....
We can do this really fast.
Mrs. Karen Redman: Can they veto?
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): Do we need them to be here for this?
The Joint Clerk (Mr. Marc-Olivier Girard): Not unless someone points out that we don't have quorum.
The Joint Clerk (Mr. Denis Robert): If nobody raises it, including yourself, we're all right.
[Translation]
Mr. Marcel Gagnon (Champlain, BQ): I'm sorry, Madam Chair, but there is something wrong. I can't follow. There is interpretation, but I am having trouble following in French.
Several of you are talking at the same time, and the interpreter is having trouble following.
[English]
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): My experience has been that we should never blame the translators for the fact that I didn't finish my sentence. Quite often, I—
[Translation]
Mr. Marcel Gagnon: I don't blame you in any way. I simply want to be able to follow the debate and take part in it.
[English]
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): Thank you.
Who would like to move a motion on the reduction of the quorum?
Mr. Ken Epp: Do you want to change it from seven?
An hon. member: From seven to four.
The Joint Clerk (Mr. Marc-Olivier Girard): It's now twelve.
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): It used to be seven from the House and two from the Senate.
Mr. Ken Epp: We have a motion here—
The Joint Clerk (Mr. Marc-Olivier Girard): It's seven members, with both Houses represented, including a member from the opposition.
Mr. Ken Epp: Okay, but I have an additional problem, Madam Chair. There's a logic problem. It says that a quorum is to be fixed at seven, and it then goes on to say that if there isn't a quorum, then for the purposes of receiving and publishing evidence, four members must be present. I think that is a logic error.
If a quorum is seven, then six, five, four, three, two, or one is less than a quorum. If this says there should then be four members present, then if there happened to be six, two would have to leave. I would therefore like to propose that we insert before the word “four”, the words “at least”, so that it would say “at least four members are present”.
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): That's fine. It's a friendly amendment.
Mr. Ken Epp: Yes, and then I would so move. Can I do that?
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): Yes.
Mr. Ken Epp: It's a friendly amendment, right? I never moved that motion.
Ms. Marlene Catterall (Ottawa West—Nepean, Lib.): Madam Chair, is this the quorum that currently sits for this committee, or is this something new?
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): It was done for the last session, but we have nine members of the House and three members of the Senate at the moment. We are just reaffirming that we prefer this one, which calls for seven from either House.
Ms. Marlene Catterall: Okay, thank you.
I understand why it's important that a member from the opposition be present, but I think it's also important that at least one member from the government be present. I'm curious about why the motion is worded as it is.
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): Usually you can't get a quorum without a member of the government.
Ms. Marlene Catterall: But we're changing the quorum.
Mr. Ken Epp: You couldn't get a quorum of seven members without having at least one government member present, right?
Ms. Marlene Catterall: What's the total number on the committee?
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): Instead of doing the arithmetic, you would prefer that it specify a member of the government and a member of the opposition, is that it?
Ms. Marlene Catterall: Yes, please. Clearly you could have a quorum without a government representative.
¿ (0920)
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): Thank you.
Mr. Ken Epp: If you want to make an amendment, Marlene, go for it.
Ms. Marlene Catterall: Yes. It should say “including a member from the opposition and a member from the government”.
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): That's a friendly amendment.
(Amendment agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])
Mr. Ken Epp: I now move the motion as it has been most recently amended.
(Motion as amended agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): Turning to the subcommittee on agenda and procedure, do we have a motion to that effect?
Ms. Marlene Catterall: Again, may I ask if this is the norm for joint committees? Normally the subcommittee on agenda and procedure reports to the main committee with its recommendations, it doesn't make decisions and then inform the committee.
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): That is the case, but you're saying that because it can make a decision to—
Mr. Ken Epp: But it says it's with respect to the agenda only.
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): And inviting witnesses.
The Joint Clerk (Mr. Marc-Olivier Girard): Yes, and the subcommittee reports its decision to the main committee.
Ms. Marlene Catterall: Is this a change? I just want to know if this is the normal rule for joint committees.
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): Yes.
Senator Jean Lapointe (Saurel, Lib.):
I so move.
(Motion agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): We turn now to the motion pertaining to the research officers.
[Translation]
Mr. Marcel Gagnon: I move the motion.
[English]
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): The motion is moved by Senator Gagnon.
(Motion agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])
[Translation]
Mr. Marcel Gagnon: For your information, I am not a senator. This may yet come, some day.
[English]
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): Oh, I keep elevating you.
Even when he comes—
The Joint Chair (Senator Yves Morin (Lauzon, Lib.)): That's a compliment.
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): The expenditures motion is next.
Ms. Marlene Catterall: I so move, Madam Chair. However, in the English it should say “either Joint Chair”, not the plural “Joint Chairs”, and either “Joint Clerk”. Sorry, but I used a red pencil for too many years.
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): Okay, “Joint Chair”, yes.
(Motion agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): Who would like to move the motion on printing?
Mrs. Karen Redman: I so move.
(Motion agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): Next is distribution of documents.
Mr. Jacques Saada (Brossard—La Prairie, Lib.): I so move.
(Motion agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): The next one is Senate authorizations to sit during Senate sittings. Maybe that should be moved by a Senator.
Senator Jean Lapointe: I so move.
Mr. Ken Epp: Did I miss one? What about distribution of documents?
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): We just did that.
Mr. Ken Epp: Oh. I thought that was the printing one that we just did.
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): It's moved by Senator Lapointe.
(Motion agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])
[Translation]
Senator Jean Lapointe: I don't know what happened, but it doesn't matter.
[English]
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): The motion on mandate is next.
Mrs. Karen Redman: I so move.
(Motion agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): We next have a motion dealing with the first report.
Mr. Julian Reed (Halton, Lib.): I so move.
(Motion agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): Lastly, we have a motion on notice about new items of business.
Mr. Jacques Saada: I so move.
(Motion agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])
[Translation]
Mr. Marcel Gagnon: Madam Chairperson, I would like to have an explanation concerning what we just did. I sit on different committees and this is the first time we have been forced to adopt all of these measures. Is this something special, or particular to this committee?
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): Yes, it is very special; we are sitting with the Senate.
Mr. Marcel Gagnon: Very well, we will eventually understand each other.
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): It is a mix of the two.
The Joint Chair (Senator Yves Morin): It is because this is a joint committee.
Mr. Marcel Gagnon: Thank you for the information.
[English]
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): Fantastic.
¿ (0925)
The Joint Clerk (Mr. Marc-Olivier Girard): Do you want to make a speech? We're done with the routine motions.
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): Yes, I want to make a speech.
What we will now do is have a look at where we've been in order to know where we're going. I think we will probably ask the Library to just do a little survey of the kinds of things we've been up to. Two things are pressing, and I think we can develop a work plan after we've done the two pressing things.
First, we really should have a look at the estimates. I think that's an extraordinarily interesting exercise for the committee in order for us to know where the money is going. For people like me, the research bureau is hugely important and really differentiates our Parliament from lots of other parliaments. We get tremendous support from the research bureau in order to be able to do our jobs as parliamentarians and to get information that is newer and different from that of the departments. I would therefore just like to have a look at the estimates to see where the money is going in terms of books versus resources.
Secondly, I was asked by the Ottawa Citizen this week about the renovation of the Library. I was asked a pretty embarrassing question, because I didn't know the answer. The question was one wondering how come we're doing half a job, and the statement was made that if we were a European parliament, we wouldn't think twice about doing this properly. Why are the critics calling it a half-job and saying we're not doing everything we could to get it into some sort of state that would really last for the future, and those sorts of things?
I would like to be able to find out how those decisions get taken. I understand that things are done through Public Works and that those kinds of decisions get taken there, but I would just like to know the process for how you make decisions, because this Library of Parliament is such a signature of the precinct. How do we go forward?
If that's okay with the committee, those would be the two pieces of work we'd start with, and then we'd do a work plan. In terms of governance and all kinds of things, I think some questions will come out of the exploration of the estimates, and we might then want to go further along that path.
Are there any other comments?
Marlene.
Ms. Marlene Catterall: On the estimates, I think it's very important that the committee do that.
I would ask if we're going to have some preparation work done on this. I presume we're going to get some kind of a paper in front of us. I would suggest that our researcher look at the plans and priorities report of the Library from last year, at its performance report, and at how the estimates relate to those two documents.
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): Of course, for the extra money that was there in the Speech from the Throne, we do need to know what happened to all of that, and what we should be able to see and feel for it in terms of accountability.
Ms. Marlene Catterall: Yes, and I would totally agree with this committee having a look at what's happening with the restoration of the Library.
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): Karen.
Mrs. Karen Redman: My only question would be whether or not the assumption of the reporter is accurate. That would indeed come out in our examination, but I don't think we should assume that the reporter saying it's half a job reflects reality.
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): No, I couldn't answer the question. That's why I think we need to be seen to be vigilant on it. We should be able to answer a question like that, one way or the other.
So is it okay if we proceed in this way? We can have the subcommittee on agenda and procedure meet, but if there's a consensus here, we can just go forward and call the witnesses for the estimates and for the briefing on the renovation. We can then decide whether or not we need the subcommittee to meet.
Some hon. members: Agreed.
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): Thank you. I hate meetings for meetings.
The clerk has asked whether or not the committee members would want to receive the memo with the table of contents of each binder.
What is this?
The Joint Clerk (Mr. Marc-Olivier Girard): It's the response from the Library regarding the demands by committee members on June 14, 2002. It's with regard to their requests for proposal, so those records are here.
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): Monsieur Bélanger had asked us to look at a number of things in regard to computer contracts and all of those things. This is the Library's response. The question is whether or not everybody wants a copy.
¿ (0930)
Ms. Marlene Catterall: May I ask that the Library of Parliament be asked to boil that down so that it is something we can take and can read?
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): Mr. Robertson.
Mr. James Robertson (Committee Researcher): I think this material that was provided was specifically requested by the committee. I have not seen it. It was not prepared by the research branch, but I will see if we can get an executive summary of the material with respect to circulating it to members of the committee.
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): The clerk is also offering to send you all at least the table of contents, such that you could then decide which bits you want and that sort of thing as well.
[Translation]
Mr. Marcel Gagnon: I presume that we can always consult the table of contents afterwards if we wish to do so.
The Joint Chair (Senator Yves Morin): We will send you six of those, Mr. Gagnon.
Mr. Marcel Gagnon: Directly to my riding office.
The Joint Clerk (Mr. Marc-Olivier Girard): But seriously, you simply have to ask me, and I will send some to the committee.
The Joint Chair (Senator Yves Morin): You can report to the committee at the next meeting.
Mr. Marcel Gagnon: Very well, if I'm given the necessary staff to assist me.
[English]
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): Is this a good time for meetings? We're always the poor little orphan who bumps up against all the other times, but is this a reasonably good time for people, Thursday mornings at nine o'clock? We're supposed to meet Thursdays at one o'clock.
Ms. Marlene Catterall: Madam Chair, having a meeting on Thursdays at one o'clock just further belittles the work of this committee, frankly, because it means we have barely an hour before question period starts.
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): How about negotiating for Thursdays at nine?
Ms. Marlene Catterall: Thursday at nine? Which Thursday? Six months hence?
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): Next Thursday. That would be amusing.
Do you have a few remarks?
The Joint Chair (Senator Yves Morin): No, I agree with that.
Ms. Marlene Catterall: Will the material be ready by then for the estimates?
Mr. James Robertson: I think it might be safer to sit two weeks from today, in order to give the Library administration time to prepare. Plus, we could then ensure that briefing notes are circulated by the end of next week, in preparation for that meeting on the estimates.
The Joint Chair (Senator Yves Morin): Which date would that be?
Mr. James Robertson: It would be April 10.
Senator Jean Lapointe: The Senate is not sitting.
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): Is the Senate not sitting on April 10?
The Joint Clerk (Mr. Marc-Olivier Girard): No, but the Senate is sitting next week.
An hon. member: Is the House sitting?
Senator Roch Bolduc: We are ready for next week. That would solve the problem.
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): Okay, we'll see how it goes.
Mr. James Robertson: We'll see if we can do it for next Thursday.
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): That's great.
The Joint Chair (Senator Yves Morin): So it will be either April 3 or April 10, is that it?
[Translation]
The Joint Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett): Thank you. Until we meet again.
[English]
The meeting is adjourned.