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37th PARLIAMENT, 1st SESSION

Standing Joint Committee on Official Languages

EVIDENCE

CONTENTS

Monday, May 27, 2002

1535

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger (Ottawa—Vanier, Lib.))

Mr. Stephen Markey (Vice-President, Government Relations and Regulatory Affairs, Air Canada)

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger)

Mr. Stephen Markey

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci (Ombudsman and Senior Director, Employment Equity and Linguisic Affairs, Air Canada)

1540

The Joint Chair

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci

1545

The Joint Chair

Senator Gérald Beaudoin (Rigaud, PC)

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci

1550

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger)

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci

Ms. Barbara Boudreau (General Manager, Customer and Employee Advocacy, Air Canada)

Senator Gérald Beaudoin

1555

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger)

Mr. Reid

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci

Mr. Scott Reid

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci

Mr. Reid

Mr. Stephen Markey

Mr. Reid

Mr. Stephen Markey

1600

Mr. Reid

Mr. Stephen Markey

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Stephen Markey

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Stephen Markey

Mr. Scott Reid

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger)

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier (Ontario, Lib.)

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier

1605

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci

1610

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger)

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau (Repentigny, BQ)

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

1615

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger)

Senator Viola Léger (Nouveau-Brunswick, Lib.)

1620

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci

Senator Viola Léger

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci

Senator Viola Léger

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci

1625

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger)

Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP)

Mr. Stephen Markey

Mr. Yvon Godin

Mr. Stephen Markey

Mr. Yvon Godin

Mr. Stephen Markey

Mr. Yvon Godin

Mr. Stephen Markey

Mr. Yvon Godin

Mr. Stephen Markey

Mr. Yvon Godin

Ms. Barbara Boudreau

1630

Mr. Yvon Godin

Ms. Barbara Boudreau

Mr. Yvon Godin

Ms. Barbara Boudreau

Mr. Yvon Godin

Ms. Barbara Boudreau

Mr. Yvon Godin

The Joint Chair

Ms. Sarmite Bulte (Parkdale—High Park, Lib.)

1635

Mr. Stephen Markey

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci

1640

Ms. Sarmite Bulte

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci

Mr. Stephen Markey

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger)

Mr. Gérard Binet (Frontenac—Mégantic, Lib.)

1645

Ms. Barbara Boudreau

Mr. Gérard Binet

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger)

Mr. Reid

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci

Mr. Stephen Markey

1650

Ms. Barbara Boudreau

Mr. Stephen Markey

Mr. Reid

The Joint Chair

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier

Mr. Stephen Markey

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier

1655

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger)

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci

1700

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger)

Mr. Yvon Godin

1705

Mr. Stephen Markey

Mr. Yvon Godin

Mr. Stephen Markey

Mr. Yvon Godin

1710

Mr. Stephen Markey

Mr. Yvon Godin

Mr. Stephen Markey

Mr. Yvon Godin

Mr. Stephen Markey

Mr. Yvon Godin

Ms. Barbara Boudreau

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger)

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger)

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger)

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger)

CANADA

Standing Joint Committee on Official Languages

NUMBER 039

1st SESSION

37th PARLIAMENT

EVIDENCE

Monday, May 27, 2002

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

¹ (1535)

[Translation]

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger (Ottawa—Vanier, Lib.)): Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. Today we welcome senior executives from Air Canada and its subsidiary Jazz. Tango and the other subsidiary are not here.

Following the hearings we had last year and the committee's report, we invited Air Canada management to come and discuss its action plan with the committee. If I understand correctly, today we will hear a presentation by Air Canada representatives. We will then proceed to the traditional question period.

Mr. Markey, you have the floor.

[English]

Mr. Stephen Markey (Vice-President, Government Relations and Regulatory Affairs, Air Canada): Merci beaucoup, Monsieur Bélanger.

Just to be clear, it's my understanding that you have the action plan already, the detailed document.

[Translation]

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Have all committee members received the action plan?

Some hon. members: Yes.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): It was distributed last week, as committee members requested.

Go ahead, Mr. Markey.

[English]

Mr. Stephen Markey: Thank you very much.

Madame Perreault-Ieraci will make an opening statement, and then we'll be happy to take questions.

[Translation]

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci (Ombudsman and Senior Director, Employment Equity and Linguisic Affairs, Air Canada): Mr. and Madame co-chairs, members of Parliament and senators, let me begin by thanking the co-chairs of the committee for suggesting that Air Canada and Jazz representatives come and present their respective linguistic action plans for 2001-2010 in person, to all members of the committee. Since these action plans are highly specific to the situation of airlines in general and to Air Canada and Jazz in particular, all committee members must be allowed the time to ask questions about the different statements in the plans.

The Air Canada action plan is designed to take account of the new context following our integration of Canadian International. It addresses the difficulties arising from the merger of two cultures, one of which had never been exposed to language requirements other than those having to do with its commercial operations.

For Jazz, the action plan has been shaped by the Act to amend the Air Canada Public Participation Act, the integration of Canadian Regional and the merger of five regional carriers into a single carrier, now called Air Canada Jazz.

The first chapter in our action plans describes the various steps taken in previous action plans to lay the foundations of bilingualism in our two airlines. We thought it would be appropriate to recall them, both to refresh readers' memories and also because without these past initiatives our current action plans would be quite different.

These action plans are much more than simply statements of intent. They are the first to be signed by so many Air Canada and Jazz executives, who are thereby making a public commitment to support Air Canada's linguistic policy. They also include the steps taken by Air Canada and Jazz in response to the recommendations of the Standing Joint Committee on Official Languages.

Furthermore, the documents you have in front of you today will be complemented by sub-action plans similar to Appendix 1 of the Air Canada Action Plan for each of the general statements that require more detailed planning, in particular as concerns language training. On that topic, it should be noted that the analysis of these action plans must take into account the fact that training financial assistance is absolutely crucial if we are to achieve our goal of recovering the bilingual capacity that we had before integrating Canadian International.

It is also important to recall that an airline is an extremely dynamic company, subject to imperatives and conditions beyond its control. Accordingly, Air Canada and Air Canada Jazz reserve the right to amend their respective action plans to adapt them to circumstances. Needless to say, however, any such adjustments will be in keeping with the spirit and the letter of the Official Languages Act.

I wish to acknowledge the active part played by the signatories of the two action plans in this process, first of all Barbara Boudreau. For those of you who have not had the opportunity to meet her, Barbara Boudreau is my counterpart at the regional carriers, now called Jazz. She is General Manager of Customer and Employee Advocacy. She handles official languages. I believe everyone knows Steve Markey, who is Air Canada Vice-President for Government Relations and Regulatory Affairs.

Barbara and I have received the unconditional support of our two presidents and CEOs, who set an example by providing the leadership for these plans, as you can see in the “Commitment and Leadership” section of our plans. Each of the vice-presidents then added any steps deemed necessary to deal with points that still call for our attention. We also received tremendous support mainly from Intergovernmental Affairs, Transport Canada and the co-chairs of this committee, who accepted to discuss our Action Plans with us, and from the spokespeople for the Treasury Board and the Official Languages Commissioner, who gave us their very valuable comments at an earlier stage.

Ladies and gentlemen, we are at your disposal to answer any questions you may have. You' ve had the opportunity to read...

¹ (1540)

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): You could take a few minutes to outline the action plan. It might be useful for people who want to follow the committee's hearings.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: All right. The regional carriers' action plan and Air Canada's action plan were developed on exactly the same lines.

Chapter 1 is a summary of past initiatives taken by Air Canada and the regional carriers to meet their obligations under the Official Languages Act. We thought it a good idea to indicate those initiatives because, in the past, Air Canada has not necessarily done an excellent job of providing information on what was being done internally to meet the requirements of the act. This also very much refreshed our memory about everything we had done. That's important because this is the structure, the foundation of what we're going to do in future. If we had not already taken all these initiatives, our action plans would be completely different from what they are today.

After this first chapter, we go into the heart of the subject with an action plan in four parts. The first part concerns the commitment and leadership of the company's management. These are all the initiatives or statements that have been made by our president and vice-presidents either before this committee last year or at meetings with the Commissioner or at meetings with the Treasury Board. They are commitments that were made orally by the most influential members of Air Canada's management committee.

Those of you who have seen Air Canada's annual report have noted that, in his message, the president devoted one paragraph to reiterating his commitment to official languages.

Part 2 of the action plan is entitled “Implementation Strategy”. There you will find initiatives which I hope will not all be Greek to you; they are very concrete initiatives linked to challenges we still have to face today and which have previously been the subject of outside complaints or of audits conducted. This second chapter, both for the regional carriers and for us, raises the points that should be attacked in particular. The second chapter is divided into three parts: language of work, equitable participation and language of service.

Chapter 3 is entitled “Management and Performance Audit Systems”. I don't know whether it's absolutely complete, but there must be some 20 audit means here that Air Canada has adopted over the years, some of which go back a very long time, to ensure follow-up and the advancement of bilingualism at Air Canada, through follow-up to language tests, complaints follow-up, follow-up to quality assurance programs or telephone surveys conducted by third parties. A large number of these are stated here.

The last chapter, Chapter 4, is entitled “Accountability and Reporting”. These are the different reports that are done. Some have been around since forever, such as Air Canada's report to the Treasury Board. There are plans to file a report with the Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages on progress in talks with our union on the draft agreement on service in airports. All these reports, of course, will also be forwarded to the joint committee. Lastly, I mention regular communications with the liaison group of the Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages. Once again this morning, in a meeting with the Commissioner, we made a proactive commitment to report spontaneously on our progress on this action plan and to take greater pride in our achievements than we have in the past.

The conclusion contains the signatures of our president and vice-presidents, who have a particular interest in this matter and who have made statements that they must carry out in this action plan.

¹ (1545)

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Thank you.

Ladies and gentlemen, Senator Beaudoin has asked me to give him the floor first since he must leave in 15 minutes. Do you see any objection to that? All right?

Senator Beaudoin, you have seven minutes.

Senator Gérald Beaudoin (Rigaud, PC): Thank you very much. That's very kind of you.

My question concerns Canadian Regional's action plans. This poses a problem because there is apparently no full bilingualism in this field. Wouldn't it be a good thing, at least at one point, to subject the regional carriers to the same Canadian statute, which moreover is a quasi-constitutional statute, so they comply with the spirit and purpose of the Official Languages Act in Canada? As we know, this is now part of the Constitution as well as our legislation. I know that we can't achieve this kind of objective in the space of a few months, but is there a genuine concern within Air Canada to achieve it as soon as possible?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: I am going to give the floor to my colleague Barbara Boudreau, who is with the regional carriers and who may perhaps briefly summarize her own action plan for you.

Since July 2000, the regional carriers, that is to say Air Canada Jazz, have been subject to the part of the Official Languages Act concerning language of service. In January 2000, with this change to the act approaching, the regional carriers and Air Canada worked together to put an action plan on paper and to have it carried out so that the regional carriers could achieve the level of bilingualism required by the act as soon as possible. So when the act went into effect in 2000, we already had a large part of the work done, and they knew where they were headed. In that way, when Air Canada had to prepare a post-integration action plan, Barbara thought it was a good idea to do exactly the same thing for the regional carriers.

The two action plans are very different. We go back a lot of years. They started much more recently, but it is very interesting to see what they've already managed to do with their union and with Joseph Randell, who is the President and Chief Executive Officer of Jazz, Air Canada Regional.

If you wish, Barbara can highlight the most important points of her action plan, which should lead the regional carriers to achieve the necessary level of bilingualism as soon as possible.

¹ (1550)

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): That won't take away any of your time, senator. You may continue after Ms. Boudreau's presentation.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: Does that suit you?

[English]

Ms. Barbara Boudreau (General Manager, Customer and Employee Advocacy, Air Canada): You would like me to give a quick résumé of the Jazz action plan. Certainly.

As Michèle said, the action plan that we put together for Jazz is similar in structure to the action plan that Air Canada has put together. We've given a résumé. In our introduction we've talked a little bit about the steps that were taken prior to the revision of Bill C-26, which clarified the obligations of the regional airlines of Air Canada under the Official Languages Act.

Following the same format, we've given a résumé of our progress as of 2001. Certainly the program at Air Canada Jazz is supported at the highest levels. We have the full support of our president and CEO, Joe Randell, and his executive. Prior to this we had managed the implementation of official languages with a management team. That has now fallen to me, as the official languages champion for the company.

We began by testing all our customer contact employees. Obviously we needed to determine their level of bilingualism. So that testing was undertaken. At that point, we began an accelerated language training program, which is modeled after the program that Air Canada is using. We are doing that program in concert with Air Canada and training our own employees--flight attendants and customer service agents.

There are a number of initiatives. I won't go through all of them. They certainly speak for the seriousness and depth of our commitment to part IV of the Official Languages Act.

Going forward, we have ensured that the principles of the Official Languages Act are entrenched in the corporate objectives of the company and in scorecards and other measures throughout the company that are administered by all of our divisions. On page 8 we go into the training program we are proposing. It's certainly a very aggressive program, given the number of people we need to train. We are moving along at an accelerated pace. We've developed a number of corporate policies around this. We have certainly made some progress with respect to communication, both internally and externally.

FInally, we discuss, as Air Canada has done, the steps we are planning to take in order to audit and measure our progress by developing a linguistic skills database of every customer contact employee within the company and monitoring their progress as they go through our training program.

Those are the highlights of the Jazz action plan. As with the Air Canada plan, we do have personal sign-off from all of the senior managers and executive at the company who will be responsible for undertaking these initiatives over the next number of years.

Have I answered your question, or would you like me to go into further detail?

[Translation]

Senator Gérald Beaudoin: I'm interested in the principle itself. When you delegate powers under an act, the person to whom those powers are delegated must be subject to the same statutes as the one who gives the mandate. The ideal would obviously be for those people and organizations to be as bilingual as Air Canada can be. If powers are delegated or if Air Canada contracts with other companies, in theory, bilingualism must be among the delegated powers. That's a principle of law, and I believe it must be observed, unless the act exempts those people, but I don't think that's the case. If it's a mistake, I would like someone to tell me. I don't think the act provides for an exemption. I believe that, in any delegation, you have to follow the same principles as in the general act, unless the act exempts the delegated powers. That's another thing, but I'd be very surprised because the purpose of the Official Languages Act is to put English and French on an equal footing.

¹ (1555)

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: I believe the regional carriers have taken this responsibility very seriously. Their action plan is definitely as serious as ours. As you have seen, it also has a responsibilities column. People who are responsible for making things happen are specifically named there. There is a timetable in their action plan just as in ours. I must tell you that we worked marvelously together as a team with the senior management of our respective companies. The development of this action plan has given official languages a considerable degree of visibility.

Senator Gérald Beaudoin: So much the better.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Thank you.

Thank you, everyone, for letting the senator go first.

[English]

Mr. Reid, you have seven minutes.

Mr. Scott Reid (Lanark—Carleton, Canadian Alliance): Thank you.

I've been going through here and looking at the various projects you're planning to undertake. The only one that I saw that is costed is on page 23: the survey for significant demand every 10 years will cost $100,000. I was wondering about the cost for the language training and other projects you're undertaking. How much would that be?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: I'm sorry, the sound is not good. I did not hear you.

[Translation]

Mr. Scott Reid: All right. I said there was no indication here of any costs for your second-language training project. The only cost I saw is that on page 23, where you mention $100,000.

[English]

...for the survey there. Do you have the estimates of how much this is going to cost you?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: Which training?

Mr. Scott Reid: Language training and the whole thing; it should be in compliance with the Air Canada Public Participation Act.

Mr. Stephen Markey: We don't have a precise estimate, because it is sort of imbued throughout the entire company. We know roughly what the costs are going to be and what we have to do in the next year, but we haven't even begun to put a dollar price on as you accumulate these costs over an extended period of time. We know, frankly, it's a commitment we're prepared to make. When Mr. Milton was here before the committee, he said that regardless of whether the act applied to Air Canada, we saw it as a strength and an asset for us in the international marketplace and in the domestic marketplace, and we'd be doing it anyway.

We haven't focused on cost; we've focused on trying to figure out how to deal with the challenges and the problems we've had. That's not to say we won't be aware of the costs as we go forward; we will be, Mr. Reid. But it's not driving our decision at this point in time, although we have to be very careful, given our precarious financial position, that we manage all of the competing challenges we face in a very prudent way.

Mr. Scott Reid: I appreciate that you don't have a universal figure, but when you look at the costs you're facing, are there any areas that are more expensive in terms of compliance costs and any that are less and easier to comply with financially? I'm thinking here of language training versus other types of costs, for example--signage and so on.

Mr. Stephen Markey: Clearly, costs vary depending what you're trying to do. The costs of signage are one order of magnitude. The costs of training, with a workforce that continues to evolve and change over time, are of a very different magnitude, and the cost of training is clearly going to be the largest portion of the cost we have to face going forward. But we have not broken it down as such. We're looking at signage right now, for example, and trying to figure out how to systematically approach the challenge of creating a consistent and regular sign at every facility so that there is some degree of similarity. That's a long-term cost and challenge to the company. In the short term, we have to make sure we get some immediate signage in place in certain locations, and that will be handled very differently. Each one has a different order of magnitude. We've not attempted to put a total cost on it.

º (1600)

Mr. Scott Reid: On a somewhat different subject, you've discussed the costs, or you've addressed the number of people who need to be trained who are currently unilingual and need to be made bilingual. The impression I have from looking at your presentation is that this is almost exclusively unilingual English-speakers who need to be made bilingual and that there are very few or perhaps no unilingual French-speakers. Am I correct in that?

Mr. Stephen Markey: I have to defer to Michèle on the statistical weighting, but clearly, the process we've been through in the last few years has left us with a challenge that is more in line with the first part of your analysis than the second part. We're training many more anglophones in the front lines to be able to meet customer needs. It's disproportionate, but I'm sure there is probably the occasional example, perhaps with pilots and others, where we have language training prerequisites that go the opposite way. I don't have a statistical number.

Maybe Michèle can help me in some kind of comparative analysis. Or perhaps Barb would have a figure at the regional level.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: The comparison I can give you is that we have six language training schools at Air Canada. The one that provides English training is the Montreal language school. There is one, versus four or five others.

Mr. Scott Reid: One last thing, then: in your new hiring you make mention of trying to hire bilingual people to fill posts in the future. Do you have any estimate as to what this is going to do? Do you anticipate there will be many fewer openings for unilingual people in the future at Air Canada?

Mr. Stephen Markey: No, that's not the point of what we're trying to do here. What we're trying to do--

Mr. Scott Reid: I know it's not the point. I'm just wondering if it's a consequence; that's all.

Mr. Stephen Markey: No. We're hiring the best people we can in the marketplace. The challenges we face on the customer service side are well known across the country in many different ways over the last couple of years. Our ability to meet people at airports to help them find luggage or to help them deal with reservations in both official languages is clearly a critical asset. We're emphasizing that asset as an essential part of our hiring program. But I don't think the conclusion you've drawn is an entirely fair one. We're doing a lot of things that are corrective. We're doing a lot of things that are long range in their focus as we try to build this airline to where we'd like to get it. It's not an exclusionary thing; it's an inclusionary thing.

Mr. Scott Reid: I find that actually a conclusion of the question. I appreciate it. Thank you.

[Translation]

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Senator Gauthier.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier (Ontario, Lib.): Good afternoon, Madam.

I read your two reports, that of Air Canada and that of Air Canada Regional, and I need a few brief explanations to understand them better.

At page 6, you talk about 10 Canadian cities where you will recruit. May I have the list of those 10 Canadian cities? You say in the second paragraph: “For positions where persons are in contact with the public...”

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: I can't guarantee that I'll remember them all. They are, from west to east: Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg, Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal, Quebec City, Moncton and Halifax.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: Thank you.

You refer to PNC. What does that mean?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: That's the “personnel navigant commercial”, the cabin crew. The PNT is the “personnel navigant technique”, the flight crew, that is to say the pilots, and the PNC is the cabin crew, the flight attendants.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: You talk about significant demand. What is your definition of “significant demand”, Madam?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: It's not mine, senator, but rather that of the regulations of the Official Languages Act.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: I have it here, but it's definitely not the Treasury Board definition that you've adopted. You're not talking about Air Canada Regional, but about Air Canada as a whole, which is subject to the entire act. What is significant demand?

º (1605)

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: Significant demand on board flights has been established by survey, as required by the Treasury Board regulations. Significant demand in the airports is provided to us by the Treasury Board: these are all the airports which handle a million passengers or more a year.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: Could you send me that in writing? I have the Treasury Board policy here. I know it because I was there when it was adopted, but I can't see how it can apply in toto to Air Canada Regional or Air Canada. Everything is based on Statistics Canada statistics. It's based on significant demand in one region which is identified as a district where there are official language minorities. In certain cases, it's 5,000 persons.

The criticism we heard here in the committee did not necessarily concern things that had happened in places where there were 5,000 persons. Sometimes there were many more.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: Air Canada has no flights to airports that are subject to the regulations concerning populations of 5,000 inhabitants or more. There are Treasury Board representatives here in the room, and I'm going to work with them to get an answer for you. The regional carriers are more affected by those regulations concerning 5,000 persons. Air Canada is affected by the regulations concerning one million passengers or more.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: You say in your action plan: “where there is significant demand”. That definition is still to come, isn't?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: No. Since the regulations have been in existence, that is to say since 1991, I believe, we have known perfectly well that Air Canada is required to offer bilingual service in the airports it serves where a million passengers or more a year pass through. I believe there are 11, but please don't ask me to name them.

As for flights, the regulations provided that Air Canada must conduct a survey of all its routes. That survey has been done. The Air Canada flights subject to the significant demand requirement under the definition in the regulations can be found on the Treasury Board Web site.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: If you had an exact definition of “significant demand” for both, for all of Air Canada and for Air Canada Regional, I'd be interested in that. I'd like to have that in writing, please.

My second question concerns training. You're proposing a 10-year plan, aren't you?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: In the present state of affairs, it's a 10-year plan.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: In response to Mr. Reid's question, are you going to ask the federal government to provide you with financial support for language training? You previously referred to that. The committee is aware of that and had even recommended it. If you were prepared to do so, we might perhaps be able to help you.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: I don't know whether they would have requested such a thing at the outset, but we are pleased about the committee's recommendation. The more resources we have, the faster we can proceed to recover the bilingual capability we lost and train the employees who need it. It's a big program, of course.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: On page 26, you say: “Annual Report to the Treasury Board on all reporting commitments.” What does that mean?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: I believe it's the act or regulations which state that Air Canada must report to the Treasury Board every year on all initiatives taken during the year, on the problems it has experienced during the year and on measures it has taken to resolve those problems.

Here's what that statement means. The committee and the Office of the Commissioner have asked us for reports. To avoid increasing the number of reports, we would like to be able to put all the reports required by all organizations in a single document, that is to say the annual report which we submit every year to the Treasury Board, and have done so for years and years. There would be only one report which would meet all objectives.

º (1610)

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Thank you, senator.

Mr. Sauvageau.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau (Repentigny, BQ): Ladies, Mr. Markey, good afternoon.

Ms. Perreault-Ieraci, I'm surprised to see that you are not one of the many signatories to the report and action plan. I find your annual report particularly well presented compared to the action plan. I would like to know how this action plan was presented to Air Canada's employees and whether it was presented only to those who signed it. I would also like to know how you are going to promote the action plan. That's my first comment.

At the annual general meeting, which was held on May 14 of this year, was the action plan one of the topics for discussion or was it at least presented to shareholders to demonstrate Air Canada's good will in this area?

My second comment concerns the principle of complaints, and I would ask you to be clear. I'm an Air Canada user. Before the official languages action plan, it was difficult to file a complaint. You told the committee that you received complaints through the Commissioner of Official Languages. I would like to know what difference there may be between what happened before the action plan and what's happening now. I find it hard to understand Air Canada's postage paid comment cards since your complaints come to you through the Commissioner of Official Languages. So I'm a user and I have a complaint to make. Since the report was tabled, what should I do?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: First, to answer your first question on the action plan's presentation, I'm willing to admit that it doesn't have the form or format of the annual report, but I believe we paid special attention to the report's visibility. It isn't bound. I don't know how you received it, but I got it this way.

With regard to the annual report, once we have gone around to the various interlocutors, there are plans to disclose it, to give it to employees by the Intranet, which is our internal Internet, to promote it in Horizons, which is Air Canada's employee newsletter, and so on each time we need to do so. The report is not intended solely for signatories.

As I said in my presentation, it is now up to each signatory to prepare his or her own strategy with his or her troops to implement each of the statements in the report. There are already five in existence which are ready to be attached to the report and will be on the Intranet, intended for our employees.

As to your second question, I believe it was you who raised the absence of questions on official languages on the Air Canada comment card.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: I spoke about a form to be put in the packets and you answered 30 million, which was way too many. I'm convinced that there won't be one passenger on each flight filing a complaint; so it's less than 30 million. I had a bid made for you--I didn't go to Groupaction or Groupe Everest and it cost me a lot less--and, for $20,000, you can have 20,000 copies. The product design is complete and it's a four-colour process. I can give you the name, if you're interested. Since you said at that point that the cost was too high, but you didn't have any prices, I'm offering you one.

My question concerns the tabling of the report. For example, as a user, I take a flight between Bathurst and Montreal. Both airports are supposed to provide bilingual service; how should I go about it if I want to file a complaint? It seems simple to me.

º (1615)

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: Starting now, there will be two highly visible things. First, Air Canada's En Route magazine, which is also on board the regional carriers, will now have two references to the official languages. Second, Mr. Milton's message in the first pages of En Route magazine, will contain a statement on the official languages which will be published every month. In addition, in the pages belonging to Air Canada--because not all of En Route belongs to Air Canada--there will also be a reference to official languages, which will repeat the slogan you have on that page and will also indicate where at Air Canada to send your comments or observations, if ever you wish to make any. So there will be a specific Air Canada address where you can send complaints and comments concerning official languages.

Second, the comment card, on which there are no questions on official languages, as you noted, is being redone and, starting in the fall, will include not only questions on official languages, but also a specific Air Canada address where people can send complaints or comments on official languages.

Third, if you're lucky, Ipsos-Reid may perhaps contact you to determine how satisfied you are with Air Canada's service. This survey, which has been in place since last September, I believe, includes five questions on official languages on board and on the ground.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: With your permission, and if I still have time, I will ask you why the postage-paid complaints form is not sent to the Commissioner of Official Languages, since you said yourself that complaints reach you through her. That's my first comment. That's the first thing I wanted to ask you, and I would like to hear what you have to say on that.

Second, when one calls the ombudsman, one gets your message. It's not the ombudsman who receives the complaints, but rather Air Canada. Five services are offered, even on the Internet; and yet none of those services concerns official languages. There are services concerning baggage, tickets, delays and so on, but none for official languages. I tried to put myself in the shoes of a dissatisfied passenger. I tried to contact you, since you had told us that you were the ombudsman, but the message refers us to Air Canada, and Air Canada refers us to baggage, tickets or schedules. Will there be a message concerning official languages? And why don't we address the Commissioner of Official Languages directly? You said that official languages complaints were forwarded to you through her.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: Currently it's the Customer Solutions department that receives all complaints that don't come through the Commissioner. So if you send a complaint to Air Canada right now--this is moreover what's going on at this time in the case of complaints that we have... it would be sent to Air Canada's Customer Solutions department. That department's address is on Air Canada's Web site.

What was the other question?

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: It's not pre-addressed to the Commissioner of Official Languages.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: Currently, Mr. Sauvageau, we are introducing this new comment card with the address Air Canada, Linguistic Affairs. Our En Route magazine also states that dissatisfied customers can write to it. We would like to start with that. Those are the steps we have taken to date. Perhaps we'll review that in future. I appreciate the suggestions you have made a number of times, but for the moment, these are the steps we have taken. People can go to a very clear address, to at least two places to send complaints.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger) : We'll come back to this.

Senator Léger.

Senator Viola Léger (Nouveau-Brunswick, Lib.): I would like to say five things.

When I was on a Jazz flight this morning, I read your program. I find it very concrete, very interesting, particularly the way you divide it into measures, responsibilities, timetables. I find you give us the means to follow you. I appreciated your action plan. I find it provides something concrete so that we can continue.

I also happened to be at Vancouver Airport. I'm one of the lucky ones: it's always bilingual when I go somewhere. I'm served perfectly well; I'm lucky. But in Vancouver, I was doubly lucky because they spoke three languages: French, English and Portuguese. I heard the sentence you want us to say, and I believe that, by repeating it each time, on all flights, it may become an automatic reflex in the subconscious, as though it were natural.

There is one thing, Ms. Perreault. We're talking about Air Canada Regional. I thought I understood a moment ago that Jazz was a start; it's not a start, but a continuation of Air Canada, isn't?

º (1620)

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: The regional carriers that constitute Jazz belonged and still belong completely to Air Canada. At the start, as we made those acquisitions, we did not necessarily hold 100 percent of the shares of those companies, but we had held them for many years. Jazz is now the merger of Air Alliance, Air Ontario, Air Nova, AirBC and Canadian Regional.

Senator Viola Léger: That's new.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: It's the one that belonged to Canadian.

Senator Viola Léger: We were at Air Canada before. It was always said that Air Nova was Air Canada. What I mean is that we're not starting; we're not starting with Jazz.

I would like to say that, based on my experience, I believe that

[English]

...there will be fewer unilingual persons.

[Translation]

I believe there will be fewer and fewer. You have a 10-year plan. There are some and there always will be, but we want to learn both languages. I imagine that is going to help us.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: I can tell you, if it's of interest to the committee members, that I completely agree with you: there will be fewer and fewer.

Take the example of temporary flight attendants who were hired for the much busier summer period. We went looking for 300 bilingual candidates. It wasn't necessarily easy, but we got 300 bilingual candidates, and this policy has been in effect since I have been in my position, that is for more than 10 years. We try to recruit bilingual personnel only.

Senator Viola Léger: This morning, on the Jazz flight, the pilot, an Anglophone, spoke to me in a French that I could understand very well.

I am very pleased to see that you are working with Dyane Adam. I also hear that we're going to receive a report. We're going to have work to continue: that's all. I believe this is very good. There's talk about a telephone survey conducted by an outside firm. That's very interesting. So I believe things are going in the direction you wanted.

Then I emphasized things, including the reevaluation. That's good.

Thank you very much.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: We indeed tried to do something very concrete. These aren't philosophical statements. We took the problems as they were, the challenges as they were, and we tried to attack them straight on. I'm pleased that you recognized it. Thank you.

º (1625)

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Thank you.

Mr. Godin.

Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

After Madam Léger's positive comments, the negative appears again, but I believe the committee's responsibility is not only to see the negative side, but also to try to solve the persistent problems of various groups or companies governed by the Official Languages Act. I'll try to do what I can to avoid being too negative, while presenting the points I want to raise to the best of my knowledge.

When Mr. Reid spoke earlier about the impact of the persons you are going to hire on Anglophones, for example--he did not use the word “Anglophone” but the word “unilingual”--Mr. Markey answered, saying that the company in fact hired qualified persons.

Have qualified Francophone unilinguals previously been hired by Air Canada?

[English]

Mr. Stephen Markey: I don't know the answer to that question.

Mr. Yvon Godin: Is it that hard, or what?

Mr. Stephen Markey: Obviously there are, and I'm sure there have been many. I can't give you a number at this point, but maybe one of my colleagues can.

[Translation]

Mr. Yvon Godin: If you have hired people who spoke only French at Air Canada or Air Canada Regional, I would like to understand the following. I have filed a letter with the Chairman. I would like him to have it translated later and distributed to committee members. It is a letter dated May 10, 2002, which I received from Ms. Boudreau. In that letter, she said that she had filed a complaint with Air Canada, which had been transferred to Air Canada Regional, that is Air Nova. When the flight attendant on duty on the Air Nova or Air Alliance aircraft, for example, gave the information on emergency measures in the event the aircraft crash landed from 25,000 or 30,000 feet, he read a document intended for unilingual Anglophone passengers.

If you don't know how many unilingual Francophones work at Air Canada as flight attendants only, can you explain to me how those people could have read that document, if there had been an accident involving Air Nova or Air Alliance?

In her letter, Ms. Boudreau says:

Since then, we have submitted a plan to Transport Canada under which we would be able to produce emergency instructions in both official languages.

That means that the emergency instructions would be in English only.

Transport Canada recently approved the plan and the emergency instructions in French will be inserted in the next amendment to the Flight Attendants Manual.

I would like to understand how those Francophones, whose number you don't know, could have acted in an emergency.

[English]

Mr. Stephen Markey: Your concerns are concerns we're very much aware of and Barb has been working on them. But I'll let her answer your question, as best we can at this point.

Mr. Yvon Godin: No, no, that's not my question. The question was raised to you and you said you didn't have the number but that many people were hired who only spoke French.

Mr. Stephen Markey: I didn't say there were many, sir, I just said I'm sure there are people who've been hired but I can't give you a number.

Mr. Yvon Godin: Okay. Then you're saying you're sure that some have been hired that only speak French.

Mr. Stephen Markey: Am I going to bet my life on it? No. I'm saying to you today I can't give you an answer.

Mr. Yvon Godin: It's very important to me that if you're going to talk about safety, especially with the official languages...that's one place the minister said that the law for sure applied. I hope that the people who read the emergency card will know how to read it.

[Translation]

But at the same time, if he knew how to read it and the instructions, according to the Official Languages Act, must be in both languages, I wonder how... We're lucky there haven't been any accidents, because I wonder how the instructions could have been transmitted to the passengers of Air Canada, which is subject to the Official Languages Act.

[English]

Ms. Barbara Boudreau: To go back to your question with regard to safety, obviously that's paramount for us; that's our number one priority. All of the emergency procedures that we follow at Air Canada Jazz, and I'm sure I speak for Air Canada as well, are completely in compliance with the Department of Transport and their requirements.

Prior to our integration, the flights that were operated in the bilingual regions of the country were operated by a very bilingual work group, and they continue to be. The flight attendants who are on our intra-Quebec flights and in the bilingual regions are primarily bilingual and they can certainly make themselves understood in both languages.

With respect to the emergency procedures card that you're referring to, during the integration of our standard operating procedures--because, again, you have to understand we were taking four separate companies with four separate sets of procedures and putting them into one new procedure that we had to instruct--this was all done within a very short timeframe. It was a requirement for us not necessarily to go ahead with all of the best practices, but to do something that we needed to do that was safe and acceptable to everyone. So we went ahead and standardized our procedures. All of these procedures will be translated. A flight attendant manual is available completely in French. That is in the process of finalization and it will shortly be distributed.

In the meantime, because we had to go out with this new standard operating procedure right off the bat, we had to go out with what we had at the time. Because that is approved, we have to now go back to the Department of Transport and ask them to reapprove the new process, which will include the information in both English and French.

The difficulty we had initially was that the Department of Transport was requiring us to make all of our anglophone flight attendants subject to the same training, and we do have a number of them in western Canada. Obviously they're not there yet. They don't have those language skills, so it would have been impossible for them to have done that. For that reason, we had to go out with it in English. Now we have a let from the Department of Transport to just instruct that with our bilingual flight attendants.

º (1630)

[Translation]

Mr. Yvon Godin: What I'm trying to say, Mr. Chairman, is that when passengers board an Air Canada aircraft, regardless of whether it's Air Canada, Jazz or the former Air Nova, the only things they can know are the ones they hear. They board the aircraft and they are told how to put on their seatbelts and where the emergency exits are located. They cannot know the emergency instructions unless the aircraft crash lands, and no one knows them since the aircraft has not yet crashed. Lastly, if they put the question to one of the flight attendants, she tells them that she's only been asked to give the information in English. This is beginning to be disturbing because ultimately no one will ever know it in any case. If the aircraft crashes, no one will ever know what happened. I don't know whether the black box will tell us what happened.

Now, you tell me--this is the part I want the committee to remember, Mr. Chairman--that Transport Canada is aware of this and that the people from the department are required to approve what will be said or the document. Now Air Nova has been subject to the act since July 2000. Two years later, this part has not yet even been... I wonder whether this part is part of official languages? It's not just a matter of what is said right away, but of what will be said later. Safety is not just something for before the aircraft crashes, but also while it is crash landing. In that case, they're only concerned with what is going on when the aircraft is en route and with what they have to do.

So you're simply telling me that the Minister of Transport has not yet given approval for that to be given in both official languages.

[English]

Ms. Barbara Boudreau: Certainly all of our emergency briefings are conducted bilingually. We have tape decks on all of our aircraft, and that is a requirement for every airline in Canada. At this point we are subject to the same safety regulations that all Canadian airlines are subject to.

[Translation]

Mr. Yvon Godin: It's not when you board the aircraft. I'm talking about what has to be done in an emergency. I'm talking about the part where you said, in response to my letter, that it was the emergency card, the one that states what must be done in an emergency aboard the aircraft, when the aircraft crashes. I'm not talking about the card that's there when you board the aircraft.

Has the Minister of Transport already given his approval? Is it operational now?

[English]

Ms. Barbara Boudreau: For this new part, yes, they have. We are in the process of working out the procedure for how that will--

[Translation]

Mr. Yvon Godin: We're in the process, but is it in function right now?

[English]

Ms. Barbara Boudreau: No. It will be shortly.

Mr. Yvon Godin: Okay. That's what I wanted to know.

[Translation]

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Pardon me, but I have to interrupt you.

Ms. Bulte.

[English]

Ms. Sarmite Bulte (Parkdale—High Park, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you for your action plan. I'd like to follow up on the question that was posed by Monsieur Sauvageau about how you plan to take this action plan to the employees. I will preface my comments by saying that I do understand that this is management's commitment to leadership. At the same time, I'm struck by the figures. I believe it's in the regional airlines, at the introduction on page three, where you say over 87% of Air Canada Regional's employees, including 100% of public contact employess, are governed by collective agreements.

Bearing in mind that I do understand that this is a commitment to management, I'm also taken aback that no union representative--notwithstanding that you've negotiated someone from the CAW to help you implement the memorandum of agreement, or some other union--has signed on to this.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that when Mr. Milton appeared before us--I believe it was Mr. Godin who asked the question about the collective agreement--the collective agreement had not even been translated into French. Perhaps that's not fair; perhaps it was that they couldn't agree upon the French translation.

My concern is that this is all great from management's point of view, but how will we ever be able to implement the Official Languages Act if we don't get the buy-in from the unions? I'm sure there's more, because I've seen one of your action plans: you've mentioned the Teamsters on the regional side and you've mentioned the CAW on the other one. How many other unions are there that are missing from this, and how will you ever be able to do this without the participation and the buy-in of the unions?

º (1635)

Mr. Stephen Markey: First of all, Ms. Bulte, this is a commitment by the management of the corporation, but it doesn't end there. What we're doing is committing the corporation to the action plan and the commitments and the kinds of objectives that are in it. In terms of the management of the corporation, each officer who has signed the document has to now try to execute their commitments against their divisional and/or functional business plans through the course of the years to come. That commitment is there.

On the union side, I think Michèle can clarify the situation with respect to that one issue of the availability of the collective agreement. With respect to other unions, there was considerable discussion at this committee, and of course it was commented in the committee's report that the precedence of the act was an important part of the environment in which the company had to operate relative to its labour relations commitments.

We have been working very closely with the unions ever since to try to ensure that the unions are a part of this process, and we will continue that. We've had some success. But I have to say that it's not a matter of a golden bullet. This is a lot of hard work and a lot of negotiating. A lot of discussion and a lot of work rule changes are required, and it's not something that will be done overnight. I think in time the commitment that Robert's making, that the officers are making, and that's being made throughout the company will inevitably get us to where we want to go. It may not be as fast as some of us at this table would like, but we will get there.

Michèle, would you clarify the issue on the collective bargaining agreement? I understood it was available.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: Yes. A lot of assertions made by the unions when they appeared in front of you are being rectified in the annual report we're providing to Treasury Board this month. The existence of collective agreements in both languages is one of the issues we address there.

All of our collective agreements have always been translated, and the French and English versions of the CAW one are always issued simultaneously. So it's out there. How they could have missed it, I don't know, but it's always been there.

As for the cooperation that is required from the unions, the major breakthrough made by the regionals with the Teamsters, we certainly put our hope there. On the discussions we have just started with the CAW on the protocol of agreement on ground services at airports, we also put a lot of hope there. I believe we will be able to make major breakthroughs again, thanks to this protocol agreement.

On the declarations the unions made before you earlier this year, or last year, one being that they recognize that the legislation has precedence over the collective agreement, we also put great hope in that.

So I believe a lot has happened lately, all together, that has created some kind of synergy. We've mentioned almost all the unions, except for CUPE, our own flight attendants. This is being negotiated right now. There are points on the agenda that deal with official languages.

º (1640)

I think it has un effet d'entraînement now, and we believe we've just seen the beginning of cooperation between management and the union.

Ms. Sarmite Bulte: Thank you. I compliment you on your work; I'm just concerned about this 87% of employees, especially on the regional side, being subject to collective agreements. Yes, it's one baby step at a time. I know there are many unions, but I see two--the Teamsters and the CAW. I know there are other unions.

I guess you've answered my concern, to a certain degree, but while it looks great, we know there's more than one union. Unless you can get the unions to buy in, you can have the world's greatest commitment...which follows upon Mr. Sauvageau's questions. How are you getting the employees to be part of the process--when we say employees, it's not management employees, but the employees who are subject to collective agreements--and buy in, to truly make this happen?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: The regionals are negotiating with CAW for their passenger agents right now, and it's going pretty well. We're in negotiations with CUPE for our own flight attendants. We have good performance in-flight. We always have bilingual flight attendants on board, because the flight attendants bought into our obligations in the past. It's already in their collective agreement that we can assign flight attendants, based on their language. There's much less to negotiate with CUPE than with CAW, for example.

Mr. Stephen Markey: I'd like to put a positive turn on that point, if I may. We have a formidable group of employees across this country. They're very deep in talent, commitment, and knowledge of the industry. They're deeply keen to succeed and prosper, as an airline and an entity. In time, you'll find that the employee group, individually or collectively, will emerge well ahead on this whole issue. If what Robert said in his last appearance is true, that will happen.

This is a huge asset for this company, going forward. We need to communicate that internally and get the enthusiasm out of the employee group. Maybe we need to spend a little time on that. Maybe it's something we've missed in the last little while, so I'll take that point away and we'll look at it. Over time, I think you'll see the employees come around, but it won't happen overnight.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Thank you. I take the last exchange as a compliment on the work of the committee. By insisting on having the union representatives appear before us, we might have contributed to this new atmosphere. I might add that the appearance of Mr. Milton before this committee might also have added to that. Thank you.

Monsieur Binet.

[Translation]

Mr. Gérard Binet (Frontenac—Mégantic, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'm very pleased to ask you a question today. I was watching television and I heard the announcement on the radio or the television. Mr. Milton said that there was a bilingual staff hiring policy. I said to myself that giant steps were being taken. I also see that there's a letter of understanding with the unions; it's a major step, like the introduction of an advertising strategy. If you want to have advertising companies with a national vision, we have them in Quebec.

Air Canada's action plan involves a strategy for recruiting bilingual pilots to operate the Beech 1900Ds implemented in 2002. My question is for Barbara Boudreau. I can see here that we're talking about Customer and Employee Advocacy. Moreover, it's only written customer”.

Precisely what is this recruitment strategy? Has the strategy yielded the expected results?

º (1645)

[English]

Ms. Barbara Boudreau: As you're aware, the Beechcraft 1900 is a smaller aircraft--an 18-seat aircraft--and therefore there are no flight attendants on board. All announcements and safety briefings are made by our pilots. It is a requirement for the pilots who are being recruited for that aircraft type to be bilingual.

According to our pilot group, they have hired as many of the bilingual pilots in that region as they possibly could. We have been going to the colleges, from what I understand, and letting them know about the company and showing them this is a way of beginning their airline career, because the Beechcraft is an aircraft that many pilots would like to start on and then make their progression through the various larger aircraft and then maybe on to a company like Air Canada.

All pilots on the Beechcraft aircraft operated by Air Canada Jazz are bilingual--the first officers, in any case.

[Translation]

Mr. Gérard Binet: Thank you.

[English]

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Mr. Reid, five minutes. Round two.

Mr. Scott Reid: Thank you very much.

I'm drawing my comments from what Mr. Godin said earlier. He raised two issues--two of my own bugbears when it comes to official languages policy in this country. One is the question of unilingual people, and particularly of unilingual francophones. This is something we tend to overlook in our public policy discussions in this country, over and over again. As more positions are made bilingual--and you can check the public service hiring figures to confirm this--the number of jobs available to unilingual people goes down, but especially unilingual francophones. That has been in steady decline within the public service. I get the impression from the discussions today that is also true in federally regulated areas such as Air Canada. That seems to me to be something to be concerned about. This is not an inconsiderable proportion of the Canadian population.

Second, Mr. Godin raised the question of safety. I had an experience that worries me a little bit. I realize one shouldn't draw exclusively from one's personal experiences, but I was taking one of these Air Canada Regional flights from Toronto Island to Ottawa, which was turned back because of an emergency. They developed a smell of burning rubber in the cabin, possibly wiring. We had to turn back and landed at Lester B. Pearson International Airport. The trucks were all out--the ambulances and the foam trucks and so on. This is one of these flights where there has been pressure to provide service in both languages.

Well, as long as it was just about buckling up your belt, there was an announcement in both languages, but as soon as there was an actual emergency.... And I understand why this happens. People get nervous, and when you're nervous you tend to lose your second-language ability. The point was this was where the French stopped and it was purely English from then on.

I don't know that if there'd been a real emergency whether the necessary information could have been given. As long as someone is just getting the service in French in order to make them feel they're included in Canada, this is all fine. But if you are actually, genuinely, a unilingual francophone on a flight from Toronto Island and there had been an emergency, I don't think the help could have been provided that would have been needed.

Now, I don't have any clever solutions to this problem, and I can see why it's a real problem. I wonder if you have thought about how you would address it.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: We're talking about Air Canada here for the moment.

Mr. Stephen Markey: No, he's talking about Air Canada Regional.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: If you're talking Air Canada Regional, I'll leave it for Barb.

Mr. Stephen Markey: I apologize--Air Canada Jazz. Even I forget.

º (1650)

Ms. Barbara Boudreau: Air Canada Regional is the legal name, but Air Canada Jazz is the brand name, if that clears up any confusion. It's gets confusing for us, too.

The flight attendant on that flight had obviously had some language training, if she was able to provide some of the basic announcements in French. It is simply, at this point, a matter of training. We certainly need to ensure that we further the training of our flight attendants and make sure they continue to progress with their language skills, so they have the confidence to be able to deliver quality service equivalently in both languages.

We are also adopting a strategy of ensuring that flights operating on the primary bilingual corridors are being crewed by our current functional and fluent flight attendants from our bases in eastern Canada. Our bases in Montreal, Quebec City, and Halifax are almost 90% fully bilingual; therefore we are forcing our schedules so flight attendants from these bases are actually used on flights, such as the one you've described.

Mr. Stephen Markey: But to your point, that is our strategy, Mr. Reid. We're going to keep focused on it because safety is the one paramount virtue that Air Canada and Air Canada Jazz have demonstrated time and again is a priority for us to Canadians. We don't intend to let that slip, so our focus will be vigilant.

Mr. Scott Reid: I appreciate the sincerity of your response, but my concern here is that we can be pushed into situations where we have promises of performance that become, in practice, impossible to achieve. There is a promise that one will have bilingual service on certain routes, and perhaps that shouldn't always be given. Of course, it's not you who makes that choice, necessarily.

I find this happens a great deal in Canada. We can give the patina or veneer of a service in both languages, but when push comes to shove--and this is true not merely of airline services, but elsewhere--we can't actually follow through. It seems to me we have merely window dressing, when we want to have more.

That's more of a comment than a question, and it's not an Air Canada-specific question, but I think it is a genuine problem anyway.

Thank you.

[Translation]

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Senator Gauthier.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: I would like to see statistics because, if we want to know where we're coming from, we have to know where we left, and where we're headed. How many employees have you had at Air Canada Regional since Canadian was integrated?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: I would say approximately 35,000, but for Air Canada alone.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: Thirty-five thousand, and they are all under Air Canada's responsibility.

[English]

Mr. Stephen Markey: 37,900.

[Translation]

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: You had 22,000; you can't have 35,000 now!

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: You have to include Canadian's employees.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: All right, with Canadian's employees. Does that include those of Jazz?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: No, if you include the employees of Jazz, the total is approximately 38,000.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: Out of a total of 35,000 or 40,000 employees, how may are unilingual? How many unilingual Anglophones are there and how many unilingual Francophones? Of the total number of your employees, how many employees, how many employees are currently bilingual?

Here's a final question. You said that there were six language schools. How much does language training currently cost for each individual at Air Canada?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: I don't believe I have all the figures on the number of unilingual Anglophones, unilingual Francophones and bilingual employees. What I can tell you, however, is that there are approximately 6,000 unilingual employees working with the public, who must therefore be trained in one of the two languages.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: How many unilingual Francophone employees are there at Air Canada working with the public?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: I don't know exactly, but I imagine there aren't many. We have many more unilingual English employees than unilingual French. As I told you earlier, one language school in five offers English courses and it is in Montreal.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: I know, but I'm asking you the question. How many unilingual Francophones work at Air Canada? Do you know any?

º (1655)

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: No.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: Nor do I. So it's not currently a problem for Air Canada.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: No.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: As for training, will you send me the figures on the costs this currently entails? That way, we may be able to say that a good effort has been made: for example, there used to be six language schools, and now there are 10; or so many students took the training and earned level A, B or C, comparing you to the public service.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: In the annual report to the Treasury Board of Canada, which appears this month, you will find figures on both Air Canada and Air Canada Regional.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: It's supposed to come out at the end of May, and this is May 27. That's my final question. According to your plan, it was to appear before the end of May. So I'm waiting for your report.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: The annual report comes out on May 31. It is understood that you will have it on May 31. Don't worry, it's ready.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: Ms. Perreault-Ieraci, are you satisfied with the timetable that has been set? Have you met it to date?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: The annual report to the Treasury Board is always...

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: No, I'm talking about your action plan. You mentioned that certain things will happen in May, others in June and others in July. Are you hopeful that they will be done?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: Senator, I made a commitment to the Commissioner this morning to send shortly to her office and to the joint committee the statements that have already been carried out. There are a lot of statements in our action plan that have already been carried out.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: The Treasury Board is looking for a definition of number or of “where numbers warrant”, and is apparently supposed to table a report within a few weeks. Are you aware of that?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: I work with the aid of the Treasury Board regulations, which I have always applied at Air Canada. I believe that, to date, the Treasury Board finds that we are meeting the regulatory requirements. I'm not saying we're 100% successful, but we are applying the right regulations.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: Is the Treasury Board going to give us a definition of “significant demand” within the planned time frame so that you can adapt to that definition?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: I must admit, senator, that I am not aware of any other regulations in the process of...

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): I believe the senator is probably talking about the work the government is preparing in response to our report on the entire question of Air Canada and its services because we made that request to the government.

Thank you.

Mr. Sauvageau.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Ladies and gentlemen, have you established a budget for promoting the official languages action plan? And will there be a press conference or briefing to inform the public, who I don't believe have access to your Intranet?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: We haven't planned for a press conference, but we have planned to put our action plan on the Internet. We have perhaps one more partner to meet. So after we have made the rounds to make everyone aware of our action plan, that plan will be posted on the Internet.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: So no press conference or launching has been planned.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: No.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: We are now converging in a way I find very pleasant. We started at 30 million cards or client cards, and you agree to offer customers postage paid cards. Perhaps we don't agree on the address, but that's merely a detail. Could you tell us how much it would have cost if you had sent those cards to the Commissioner of Official Languages rather than managing the complaints yourselves?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: A study has been conducted on the cost of a card made in four copies...

» (1700)

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: No, I'm talking about this one, the one you're making. How much more would it cost you if, instead of writing Mackay Street in Montreal, you wrote the address of the Commissioner of Official Languages?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: The difference is also in the price of postage. These cards are postage paid. They always have been and they will continue to be. That's not something extra.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: So you're not offering customers anything more under this action plan.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: We're offering them a direct address which they did not have until now.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Pardon my obstinacy or my obsession, but why can't customers who have a complaint to make against Air Canada make that complaint to the Commissioner of Official Languages, as was previously the case? You said that the complaints you received at Air Canada came to you through the Commissioner of Official Languages. You are now going to offer customers postage paid cards. In my opinion, that's completely inadequate, insufficient, improper and incomplete. You see I don't share Ms. Léger's optimism, but I hope we appreciate each other all the same.

So why aren't those cards sent to the Commissioner of Official Languages so that we can see, as Senator Gauthier said, how many complaints there were last year and how many there will be this year or in two years? Let's suppose I'm the president of Air Canada and I send complaints to myself. Even if I'm very good, I could perhaps say that I'll receive somewhat fewer and consider some unacceptable or whatever. I'm asking you why those complaints are not sent to the Commissioner of Official Languages, as the committee asked you. It wasn't the Commissioner of Official Languages who asked you. It was the committee that unanimously asked you to provide postage paid cards addressed to the Commissioner of Official Languages. Why didn't you accept that committee recommendation, particularly if all your people are bilingual and you have nothing to blame yourself for?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: I believe that, as you say, complainants already write to the Commissioner of Official Languages when they need to do so. What customers did not have until now was an Air Canada address where they could make their concerns known. We are now going to provide them with that. We believe that this is the appropriate decision for us to make. We will see the results of that over the coming months. I have previously said that I would not hesitate to inform you of the number of complaints we would receive in this manner, and I hope you consider us sufficiently honest and in good faith to believe that we will give you exact figures. We intend to reach out to our passengers in various ways in order to tell them where they can turn.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Dear Madam, you enjoy an entirely favourable prejudice on our part.

On page 2 of the appendix you have given us, you talk about comment cards, signage at airports and messages. Once these are available, will you send copies to the joint committee?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: Absolutely.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: You are very kind.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: I can tell you right away that, in July, you will see what is to appear in En route magazine. It will come out in July. Air Canada in general is completely redoing its Web site. Once the new site is open, it will show the slogan and the offer of service. The comment cards are at the printer. As for signage in the airports, a meeting is scheduled for next week to see where we can put up that signage because Transport Canada doesn't give us a lot of space. Not much belongs to us in an airport. I believe the area behind our computers belongs to us and that's all. The rest belongs to Transport Canada, and there's no way we can post signage there.

The pre-take-off announcements that Senator Léger mentioned already exist. Do we make those announcements in a constant or regular manner? I don't know, but the General Manager of In-Flight Service is determined that it will be done routinely.

So, as I said earlier, the deadline for everything in this action plan, except perhaps training, which is spread over 10 years, is the end of this year or early next year. So it will be done very quickly.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Thank you. Are you going to send us copies of all that?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: Yes, of course.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): I would ask you to send all the documents to the clerk, who will distribute them to all the committee members. Thank you.

Mr. Godin.

Mr. Yvon Godin: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thought the floor would be given to a Liberal.

Sometimes I say I don't hand out compliments, but I'm going to give one to Air Canada. Last week, I took a plane to London, England. A survey was being conducted on global airline performance. A man in the Maple Leaf Lounge asked me to answer some survey questions. One of the questions concerned the ability of cabin crew to speak the traveller's language. Believe me, I answered that it was excellent. Let's give credit where credit is due.

I want to tell you that Mr. Markey took the trouble to send me a letter--and I don't think I was the only one to receive that letter--telling me that Air Canada had been recognized as the third best airline in the world and was proud of the fact. Is that comment based on a card that I completed today? Is a survey being sent to Air Canada customers who take international flights? That wasn't the first time I had taken an international flight, and I have always received service in both languages.

What I notice personally on my trips in Canada is that there is a problem on regional flights where there's only one person providing cabin service. When that person doesn't speak both official languages, we have a problem.

I believe that every time I've travelled on an Air Canada flight where there were a number of personnel, it was possible to have service in both languages. I want that to be on the record. I don't want to be viewed as someone who is against Air Canada.

However, in his letter, Mr. Markey gave us the address of a site where we could view Air Canada's performance, but he took the trouble to tell us that it was only in English. We were given the address of the site and told that it was in English only. I found that a bit cute. I simply wanted to make that comment. I believe there are areas where there is a problem.

So I would like to ask a question, knowing that the problem normally arises only on aircraft where there's only one person on board to provide service. I believe that's where the problem lies.

About a month ago, a plane left Fredericton for Ottawa, and the flight attendant only spoke English. I have reason to believe that service should be provided in both languages on an aircraft departing from Fredericton, since Fredericton is the capital of a bilingual province. That's the reality. What's Air Canada Jazz doing today to establish schedules tailored to the regions where Francophones live?

It's like when I left Ottawa to go to Montreal. In your report, you refer to the Toronto-Montreal route. I'm going to talk about the Ottawa-Montreal route, where the person only spoke one language. When we left Montreal to go to London, Ontario, the person spoke only one language. Last month, on an aircraft departing from Fredericton for Ottawa, the person spoke only one language. What is Air Canada Jazz doing now, particularly right after a report such as this, to prepare schedules that will ensure that these kinds of things no longer occur?

» (1705)

[English]

Mr. Stephen Markey: Before Barb answers that question, let me just acknowledge your compliment.

Mr. Yvon Godin: What? Say that again.

Mr. Stephen Markey: If I may just acknowledge your compliment.

Mr. Yvon Godin: Yes.

Mr. Stephen Markey: Because I took from your words a small compliment. The Skytrax survey that we circulate is an independent survey. It's done by an organization over which we have no control over their management. They survey over four million people. The purpose in sending that out was frankly self-serving, and I acknowledge that. It was just to blow our horn a little bit. Air Canada has had some very challenging times in the last couple of years. That survey positioned us nicely relative to other international airlines in the same way that the OAG survey last week suggested that Air Canada was the best business airline in North America.

So amidst all of the trials we've had over the last couple of years, we've stayed focused on trying to be a safe airline trying to give passengers what they want, and every once in a while we are rewarded by seeing a survey of that nature. And that's why we send them out.

Mr. Yvon Godin: I'm not trying to keep this going here, but I think it's important to say that I don't think we complain at this committee about Air Canada overall, just about service that is supposed to be given in both official languages of our country. I think this committee has been pretty specific on that. It's not the service that the people, the human beings, give to the clients. I'm talking about the service--

» (1710)

Mr. Stephen Markey: To be fair, you're absolutely right.

Mr. Yvon Godin: I don't think I've ever raised the service of Air Canada or whether I like Air Canada or not in this room.

Mr. Stephen Markey: I hope you do. You fly enough with us.

Mr. Yvon Godin: I do. I fly twice a week, and I'm a very good client of Air Canada.

But this was just to mention that it is the language we're dealing with, which we want to be respected.

Mr. Stephen Markey: That's why we're here today. That's why we're so focused on it, and that's why Mr. Milton has made the commitments he's made. We'll keep applying ourselves assiduously to that task.

Mr. Yvon Godin: My question was to Madam Boudreau. That was a comment of Mr. Markey's.

Ms. Barbara Boudreau: As I've mentioned before, Mr. Godin, we are certainly doing our best right now to prioritize flying in the bilingual regions, and certainly the routes you've just described are definitely considered part of our priority route selection right now. We are focusing on assigning routes to our flight attendants based in Halifax, Montreal, and Quebec City, because they are primarily bilingual at those bases and we can deliver that service.

There will be times, because of staff shortages or last-minute reassignments of flight attendants, when it will be necessary to put someone who doesn't have that fluency on the flight. That unfortunately may happen from time to time.

One of the things we are doing proactively is growing the base in Montreal. We've recently taken a number of transfer requests to that base, and because we consider the language of work in the province of Quebec to be French, only bilingual flight attendants are bidding into our Montreal base. I think by the end of the summer we expect to add at least 30 more flight attendants to that base, which will almost double the size of it, so we'll have more and more flexibility to offer that higher level of service.

[Translation]

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Thank you.

I have a comment to make. When one refers to Air Canada, if I'm not mistaken, one also refers to Tango and Jetz, as opposed to Air Canada Jazz.

An hon. member: Absolutely.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): People should be aware of that.

Pardon me, Ms. Perreault, but I missed the answer to the question from my colleague Mr. Sauvageau, who asked why your signature did not appear on the documents.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: That's a very good question.

I'm not a vice-president at Air Canada, and I felt that the report had to be signed by those who have direct power, that is to say the vice-presidents. There are directors general who have made a commitment in this respect because their vice-presidents had already made a commitment, but implementation has been delegated to them, as in the case of the letter of understanding, for example.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): I would point out that you asked us a moment ago to trust you. I believe you have the approval of all my colleagues in that regard. I would like to ask you whether it is possible for you to add your signature in some kind of addendum. You are one of our main interlocutors on this question. We have received you here on a number of occasions, and I hope we will receive you at roughly this time next year to see what progress has been made. I believe that would add something tangible to this report.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: It's a report I'm very proud of. I'm particularly proud of the enormous amount of team work that was done to produce it. It would certainly be with a great deal of pride that I would also sign the report.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): Thank you very much.

As much as we have clarified the scope of our past, present and future actions with regard to the implementation of the Official Languages Act, I see there is a clear will to do better. As I said, I ask you to return here next year, around this time of the year, so that we can assess what progress has been made and see whether we can help you in other ways. In the meantime, the committee will have received the government's response to its report, and I hope that it will be a very positive response. It's a message for the government.

Mr. Sauvageau, one very brief question, because there is one other thing afterward.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Madam Perreault-Ieraci, could you tell us the number of complaints that were filed in 1998, 1999, 2000 and 2001?

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: You have that in the Commissioner's annual report.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): We're talking about those that were sent to you.

Ms. Michèle Perreault-Ieraci: All right.

The Joint Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger): My dear colleagues, we have an in camera discussion on the agenda to adopt a report. We don't have enough time for that, but, with your permission, I'm going to ask the Commissioner whether she has any comments to add. Meetings have been held on this entire question of Air Canada. If you wish to make any comments, we will give you the floor. Otherwise, we will adjourn the meeting.

Commissioner?

Thank you very much.

Ladies and gentlemen of the committee, we will resume tomorrow. I invite you to read the draft report on the Department of Citizenship and Immigration and Part VII so that we can try to adopt it tomorrow.

Good day.

The meeting is adjourned.