LANG Committee Meeting

STANDING JOINT COMMITTEE ON OFFICIAL LANGUAGES

COMITÉ MIXTE PERMANENT DES LANGUES OFFICIELLES

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Tuesday, May 30, 2000

• 1535

[Translation]

The Vice-Joint Chair (Mr. Benoît Serré (Timiskaming—Cochrane, Lib.)): Good afternoon. I would like to welcome all our witnesses, senators and members of Parliament to today's meeting.

In accordance with its terms of reference under Standing Order 108(4)(b), the committee is resuming its study of the application of Chapter VII of the Official Languages Act.

[English]

We have quite a few witnesses today. We want to give everybody a chance to make their presentations and give members of Parliament and senators a chance to ask their questions.

[Translation]

We will be quite strict in our time allocation. We have asked the witnesses, MPs and senators to keep their comments to about seven to ten minutes. Normally, people have up to ten minutes, but today, depending on the number of members, we may try to reduce the time to seven or eight minutes in order to give everyone an opportunity to ask questions.

Our witness today is the Honourable Ron Duhamel, the Secretary of State for Western Economic Diversification and the Francophonie. I would invite Mr. Duhamel to proceed with his presentation.

Hon. Ronald J. Duhamel (Secretary of State (Western Diversification Canada) (Francophonie), Lib.): Thank you. Good afternoon, colleagues.

With me this afternoon are project officers Marcel Préville and Guy Brunet.

I am very pleased to be here today, not only as a member of Parliament, but especially as Secretary of State for Western Economic Diversification and the Minister responsible for La Francophonie. I'm also very pleased to be here as a francophone member of Parliament from Western Canada.

I'm very interested in your committee's work, and I am very pleased at the attention you are devoting to the implementation of Sections 41 and 42 of Part VII of the Official Languages Act which, in my view, is especially important for minorities.

[English]

It is with a great deal of pleasure that I will outline to you briefly the efforts made and the results obtained by the Department of Western Economic Diversification on our official languages obligation.

[Translation]

When Cabinet decided in December 1994 to include an accountability framework in the implementation of Section 41, the implementation process truly began to gain some noticeable momentum. More recently, progress has been accelerated by a series of milestone events, such as: recent legal decisions, and Senator Simard's report entitled Bridging the Gap: From Oblivion to the Rule of Law.

[English]

In his report, Senator Simard noted, and I'm quoting:

...the exemplary leadership of the Department of Western Economic Diversification, which has come to understand the extent of its responsibilities for the economic development of the [francophone] communities in the Canadian West, particularly over the past two years.

I continue his quote:

The Department has taken the necessary steps to determine the communities' actual needs, which has led it to opt for an integrated rather than a segmented approach to economic development.

Senator Simard goes on to say:

The Department has managed to introduce this program through the reallocation of its existing financial resources, without any additional government funding. This is a perfect example for other institutions and for the provincial governments, which contend that they cannot carry out their responsibilities without receiving special compensation.

He then recommended that WD's approach serve as a model for other federal government organizations, including the approach to transforming the department's organizational structure.

Ladies and gentlemen, you should know that I undertook this mission not just because of sections 41 and 42, but because I believe that economic development and community development can be done in French, and in so doing, you strengthen the minority community, you strengthen its identity, you increase its pride and its sense of belonging.

Our approach to achieving the intent of section 41 is quite simple, actually. We began with three fundamental principles:

[Translation]

we engaged in meaningful dialogue with Western Canada's francophone communities; we jointly identified with them the needs in terms of economic and community development; we then adopted a strategy. I want to quote it, because I think it is very important.

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[English]

The strategy has an underlying principle, which is to provide the minority official language communities in the west with a means for them to assume responsibility for their economic and community development.

[Translation]

There are four “pillars” that support this strategy: a francophone community economic development organization in each western province; access to capital; development of the tourism sector; and entrepreneurship development.

[English]

We have determined, colleagues, that it was not cost effective nor feasible to have our service delivery partners, such as the Community Futures Development Corporations, acquire the means necessary to be able to deliver services in French or to deliver them in a timely manner to francophone entrepreneurs and small and medium-sized enterprises. A major consideration, of course, was the fact that the francophone communities are widely dispersed throughout their respective provinces in the west.

[Translation]

Consequently, WD worked with western francophone communities to establish four province-wide economic and community economic organizations. There is now an effective, autonomous francophone economic development organization in each of the four western provinces, as well as a community development organization.

[English]

WD is providing multi-year core funding to all four organizations, totalling almost $2.5 million over a three-year period ending March 31, 2001. To address the issue of access to capital, WD is setting up a micro-loans fund in each western province for the francophone business community. Under this approach, my department and each of the four francophone economic and community development organizations will conclude an agreement with a financial institution for the provision of this service. My department's investment could be in the $400,000 to $500,000 range in each province, but this will lever up to $2 million in each province.

[Translation]

The first of these funds was set up in Saskatchewan and was launched this past April 20. Discussions are underway in the other three provinces which will lead to agreements shortly.

The third pillar is the tourism sector. Last year, my department approved a contribution of $558,000 for three years for the establishment and operations of the Conseil touristique francophone de l'Ouest (CTFO), a joint initiative of the four francophone economic development organizations, to develop tourism corridors amongst francophone communities across the West.

[English]

Now, this combined pan-western tourism corridor will eventually be linked to the long-term vision of a pan-Canadian

[Translation]

route de la francophonie.

[English]

Last, we have entrepreneurship. WD actively supports various events or projects that promote entrepreneurship, and I will just mention them briefly because of lack of time.

[Translation]

There are the Forums économiques nationaux pour les gens d'affaires francophones and the Mondial des Amériques, which has already been held here, to demonstrate our goods and services. My department supported 20 young francophone participants from Western Canada. The Mondial de l'entrepreneuriat jeunesse will hold its third event in Ottawa this fall and is expecting attendance from 35 countries. Here again, WD will assist at least 30 young francophone entrepreneurs from Western Canada. My department also contributed to the Réseau francophone d'Amérique of the Alliance des radios communautaires du Canada. This national satellite network links 18 francophone and Acadian community radio stations across Canada. There are many other initiatives, but I would like to conclude my remarks.

[English]

In addition to all of this, WD plays an active role in the activities of the National Committee for Canadian Francophonie Human Resources Development as well as the activities of the committee's four sectorial round tables on tourism, rural development, the knowledge-based economy, and the inclusion of young people in economic development.

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[Translation]

I should emphasize that my department does not work in isolation. The development I just outlined for you more often than not involves interdepartmental co-operation. In this regard I must point out the co-operation of our colleagues at Canadian Heritage, Human Resources Development Canada and Treasury Board, to name but a few.

[English]

Francophone economic development organizations are also working with provincial and municipal governments to foster the economic development of francophone enterprises. All in all, colleagues, we make real the words “working together”.

[Translation]

At the moment, we're planning for the future. In co-operation with our partners. We intend to devise a long-term, rather than a short-term, plan, one that will allow the Western Canadian communities to develop as such and to develop economically.

I will stop here. I would just like to say that we think that we have met the objectives of the Official Languages Act to a significant extent. Of course, much remains to be done, but we intend to do it together. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The Vice-Joint Chair (Mr. Benoît Serré): Thank you very much, Minister. We will hear from all the witnesses before asking members of Parliament and senators to ask their questions. Do you have a point of order, Mr. Plamondon, or would you like to wait?

Mr. Louis Plamondon (Bas-Richelieu—Nicolet—Bécancour, BQ): I will wait.

The Vice-Joint Chair (Mr. Benoît Serré): Fine. We will now move on to our next witness. He is the Deputy Minister of the Economic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions of Quebec, Mr. André Gladu, who has with him Mr. Jocelyn Jacques and Mr. Pierre Bordeleau. I will now turn the floor over to Mr. Gladu.

Mr. André Gladu (Deputy Minister, Economic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions of Quebec): Thank you very much.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier (Ontario, Lib.): I would like to raise a point of order.

The Vice-Joint Chair (Mr. Benoît Serré): Yes, Mr. Gauthier.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: All members of Parliament and senators are very busy these days. From the documents distributed today, I see we have four witnesses. The research document for the committee was distributed today. In any case, it reached my office today. It was written on May 25. Why can we not get the documents a few days ahead of time so that we can read them and ask our witnesses intelligent questions? At one point, we got a whole series of documents. I have considerable difficulty, because of my hearing problem. I cannot read and listen. I hear you through a computer. It is very frustrating, Minister. So I would ask you to shorten your remarks so that we have more time to ask you questions. Otherwise, it will be 5 p.m., and we will all go home.

The Vice-Joint Chair (Mr. Benoît Serré): You raise a very important point, Mr. Gauthier. As you know, we often have translation problems. We cannot distribute documents to committee members if there is no translation. I am not trying to make excuses for the committee, but these things do happen, and our clerk has noted your concern. In future, we will try to distribute documents as soon as possible.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: I chaired this committee for a number of years, and I am familiar with the problem. It is not really a translation problem. It is a problem of document distribution.

The Vice-Joint Chair (Mr. Benoît Serré): I have noted your comment, and we will do our best in future, Mr. Gauthier. Mr. Gladu.

Mr. André Gladu: Thank you very much. I am pleased to have this first opportunity to report on the way Canada Economic Development fulfils its responsibilities and implements section 41 of the Act.

[English]

I can assure you from the outset that the staff at our head office and other offices concerned are very well aware of our commitments regarding section 41 of the act. We all understand that fulfilling our mandate in its entirety, to promote regional economic development and support the efforts of Quebec's small and medium-sized businesses, is intimately linked to respecting that commitment.

Of the Canada Economic Development's 13 regional offices, 11 of them are required to provide bilingual services and meet that requirement very well. Indeed, a survey of 923 small and medium-sized businesses conducted at the end of the fiscal years 1998 and 1999 found that 84% of the 71 English-speaking respondents believed it was easy to obtain service in English. Over 75% of them also said that the quality of in-person English service was excellent. Overall, I think we have good reason to be proud of the results it has achieved with respect to section 7 of the Official Languages Act.

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Our performance bears witness to the path we've followed in recent years. Here I would like to mention steps we've taken to establish stronger relations with organizations representing minority language communities, as well as the mechanisms that have been developed and put in place to raise awareness and a sense of responsibility among Canada Economic Development staff.

[Translation]

Allow me to note on this subject that more than a year ago, Canada Economic Development adopted a statement of principle to acknowledge the Agency's commitments in the application of Part VII of the Act. This statement of principle is posted in our regional offices.

In this statement, Canada Economic Development vows to develop an early integrated action plan. It also commits itself to implementing special measures in major designated regions such as Abitibi-Témiscamingue, Outaouais, the Greater Montreal Area, the Eastern Townships (Estrie), the Gaspé Region and the North Shore. Finally, it proposes to establish better communication between English communities spokesgroups and Canada Economic Development's business offices.

[English]

I would now like to take my few remaining minutes to review with you some of the initiatives we've introduced in the wake of our action plan for fiscal year 1999-2000.

It should be noted that for each of the past three years, CED, or Canada Economic Development, organized a series of small business conferences, the Info-Fairs, which attracted a significant number of English-speaking participants. These were held in Sherbrooke and Montreal in 1997; in Rouyn-Noranda, Laval, and Hull in 1998; and in Seven Islands and Valleyfield in 1999. English-speaking participants from those regions were thus given the opportunity to acquaint themselves with the range of programs and services the Government of Canada offers to existing and potential entrepreneurs.

In that spirit, an information tour was conducted by our personnel in the Lower North Shore in the winter of 2000. This region, as you well know, has been very severely affected by the decline in groundfish stocks. The purpose of the tour was to provide information on Canada Economic Development programs and services to as many citizens as possible in this largely English-speaking region, in order to bring forward initiatives to diversify the region's economy. In fact, since the tour, the regional office in Seven Islands has already received two applications for financial assistance, one of them related to marine algae processing.

[Translation]

In the metropolitan Montreal area, Canada Economic Development has contributed—and will continue to do so in the coming years—to stimulating youth entrepreneurship within the anglophone community. In 1999-2000, it supported the activities of the Youth Employment Services with a final contribution of $100,000. Our Agency intends to forge a long-term service partnership with this organization, which appeals to a significant clientele in the Greater Montreal region and has an entrepreneurial mandate consistent with our corporate mission.

In the Eastern Townships, a similar initiative for which we also provided support was geared towards facilitating access to the labour market for young anglophones. Established by Jobs Links, an organization devoted to finding employment for young anglophones, the Jobs in Focus program is a job forum for members of the Eastern Townships' English-speaking community. For this event, Job Links joined forces with Bishop's University, the Townshippers' Association and the daily newspaper The Record, a partnership that is eloquent testimony of the vitality of the anglophone community in the Eastern Townships.

In the Gaspé and Magdalen Islands, since 1994, our Agency has directly contributed on several occasions, with the Committee for Anglophone Social Action (CASA), to the development and promotion of the Baie-de-Cascapédia Loyalist Village. The goal of the CASA's tourism project is to demonstrate the lifestyle of the English-speaking community in the Gaspé at the turn of the 20th century, as well as its contribution to the colonization and development of the region.

In the Outaouais, while the English-speaking community represents some 25% of the population, approximately 30% of the project originated from representatives of the English-speaking community.

Finally, to wrap up this tour of Quebec, I would like to mention an initiative that was carried out in the Northern Quebec region. With the assistance of Canada Economic Development, Mistissini Geological Resources organized a mining conference in Mistissini this past August 24 through 27. This event, which took place in English, was intended primarily to introduce young Cree to career opportunities in mining and to encourage them to consider such a possibility.

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[English]

These projects are but a few examples of the many initiatives put forward by Canada Economic Development staff or supported financially or otherwise by the agency. A number of projects that are currently underway and of which I did not make mention here today will come to fruition during the course of the 2000-01 fiscal year. We will proceed with the normal ongoing assessments to determine the value of our contribution.

[Translation]

I can also assure you that we intend to carefully review a report tabled last week by anglophone communities and associations, which, in partnership with Human Resources Development Canada, has assessed all the needs of Quebec's English-speaking community. If you wish, we can come back to this aspect of our work during the question period.

Thank you.

The Vice-Joint Chair (Mr. Benoît Serré): Thank you very much, Mr. Gladu.

I would now like to ask Mr. Paul LeBlanc, the Vice-President, Policy and Programs at the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency, to make his presentation.

Mr. Paul J. LeBlanc (Vice-President, Policy and Programs, Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency): Honourable Committee members, please allow me first of all to thank you for your invitation to appear before you today.

In order to better inform you on the initiatives taken by ACOA in implementing Section 41 of the Official Languages Act, I would like to set out our organization's mandate along with our vision in respect of this provision. I would then like to present a few of our initiatives within the context of our mandate and strategic priorities.

With the mandate of increasing the opportunity for economic development in Atlantic Canada and, more particularly, of enhancing the growth of earned incomes and employment opportunities in that region, ACOA seeks to support and promote new opportunities for economic development in Atlantic Canada, with particular emphasis on small- and medium-sized enterprises.

ACOA pursues this mandate through a set of strategic priorities. These are: Atlantic economic policy development; advocacy of Atlantic interests in national policy development, and co-ordination of federal economic activity in the region; promotion of international trade, foreign investment and tourism; innovation, technology and research and development; entrepreneurship and skills development; rural and community economic development; and access to investment capital and information for SMEs.

As for Section 41, we feel that in some way it embodies the spirit of the Official Languages Act. Section 41 requires more than the provision of service to the public in the official language of its choice. It sets out the attitude and approach that federal institutions must adopt with respect to their official language communities. Section 41 asks federal institutions to go one step further and to be particularly mindful of enhancing, developing and fostering the francophone communities in our regions.

ACOA has the task of serving as an advocate for Atlantic Canada's interests, priorities and concerns in federal economic government policy-making, program design and project selection. In pursuit of this role, ACOA continues to focus particularly on the Acadian and francophone communities. The Agency has developed partnerships with organizations such as the Canadian Institute for Research on Regional Development, at Moncton University, to undertake policy development studies for francophone communities, including studies in such sectors as forestry, fisheries, tourism and biotechnology.

Attention should also be drawn to the significant role played by ACOA at the Francophone Summit in the areas of co-ordination, support and promotion of activities surrounding the Summit. The Summit was a unique opportunity to promote the advantages of Atlantic Canadian business before an international audience. A large number of Acadian and francophone businesses from Atlantic Canada participated in the various activities.

• 1600

An illustration of our recognition of the francophone presence in Atlantic Canada is our continuing participation on the National Committee for Francophone Human Resources Development. We will shortly be meeting with Atlantic Canadian co-ordinating groups on economic development and employability to exchange on their priorities and to gain a better appreciation of their needs.

The co-ordinating groups act in concert with economic development groups involved in their regions, and liaise with the National Committee for Francophone Resource Development.

In the area of international trade, investment and tourism, the Agency assisted in the development of tourism-related products in francophone communities in our region. We have invested in Acadian and francophone tourism projects, including the development of the Village historique de Pubnico and the Parc historique national de Grand-Pré, in Nova Scotia, as well as the Village historique acadien in New Brunswick.

We have also actively participated in the international marketing of these and other francophone community tourism destinations.

[English]

As for innovation and technology, ACOA seeks to strengthen the region's innovation and technology capacity. To accomplish this, the agency has partnered with organizations such as

[Translation]

Moncton University's Parc scientifique, the community colleges, Bathurst—

[English]

and others. The agency has helped connect schools in Atlantic Canada to the Internet, including francophone schools. ACOA lent its assistance to the organization of the International Conference on Smart Communities, a forum to further the review of information technology and related smart applications thereof. ACOA also provides assistance towards the Acadie-Sherbrooke International Francophone Health Sciences Conference, an event emphasizing the use of information technology in health sciences.

In the area of entrepreneurship and skills development, ACOA has worked with the Atlantic Provinces Education Foundation since 1993 to instil notions of entrepreneurship and enterprising values in schools throughout the Atlantic, and it lent assistance to the

[Translation]

Assemblée des aînées et aînés francophones du Canada

[English]

for a project through which retired francophone entrepreneurs shared their experiences with the community.

Publications in the area of entrepreneurship, published or financed by ACOA, emphasize the spirit of enterprise and the ways of starting one's own business. ACOA has also been instrumental in the development of a francophone television series, Temps d'affaires, promoting entrepreneurship. This series is broadcast nationally and internationally.

[Translation]

Within the framework of its community economic development program, ACOA has the mandate to help the communities plan and implement their vision to create long-term, self-sustaining economic activity. ACOA works in partnership with community business development corporations, the CBDCs, supporting counselling and financial services the CBDCs provide to SMEs in rural communities. ACOA ensures that francophone SMEs receive services from the CBDCs.

Finally, in terms of access to capital and information, the Business Development Program targets the start-up, expansion and modernization of small- and medium-sized businesses. Our network of service outlets throughout the region, in particular that of the Canada Business Services Centres, allows SMEs direct access to the expertise of ACOA's officers to facilitate the development and implementation of their plans.

ACOA looks to the future with optimism and determination. The agency's 2000-2002 section 41 Action Plan will be tabled in Parliament through Canadian Heritage at the end of June 2000. We intend to pursue our leadership role in economic development, more particularly within the Atlantic francophone community.

Owing to its network of development officers and their close working relationship with SMEs and Atlantic francophone development organisations, ACOA intends to pursue its efforts in partnering, collaboration and networking so as to maximize the potential for economic development in the region's francophone and Acadian community.

Thank you, honourable committee members. I would now be pleased to answer your questions.

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The Vice-Joint Chair (Mr. Benoît Serré): Thank you, Mr. LeBlanc.

[English]

Now, from Industry Canada, we invite Ms. Brigitte Hohn, executive director for the Ontario region.

[Translation]

Ms. Brigitte Hohn (Executive Director, Ontario Region, Industry Canada): I'm very happy to be here today, to speak on Industry Canada's activities in the Ontario region designed to meet the needs of francophones in Southern Ontario.

As you no doubt know, southern Ontario has no regional agency. That is why Industry Canada's Regional Ontario Office has implemented a variety of activities that would normally be established by a regional agency. Today, I have with me Mr. David Dallimore, of the Regional Ontario Office Planning, Analysis and Public Affairs Section.

We are trying to improve our monitoring of francophone businesses in Ontario, in all sectors. Last year, we decided to carry out an independent study to assess the status of francophone businesses in southern Ontario, particularly in four areas: the Canada-Ontario Business Services Centre, which provides businesses with information on federal, provincial and municipal programs; access to export information; the Community Access Program, which provides communities with Internet access; and the Community Development Assistance Program.

[English]

Eight focus groups were conducted, and several specific recommendations emerged for improving service to francophones in these programs. An action plan was then developed and is being implemented, with two major results. First, we are giving more attention to francophone outreach in all our programs, based on the recommendations of the study. Secondly, we are reaching more francophone clients through increased partnerships, especially

[Translation]

the Chambre économique de l'Ontario and the Joint Committee. Our work with the Chambre économique makes it possible for us to establish important ties with chambers of commerce, business associations and francophone colleges. The partnership also enabled us to draw almost 300 participants to a completely francophone information fair held in Casselman last year.

[English]

Another initiative with the Chambre is the organization of a delegation of francophone entrepreneurs to Europe planned for later this year. Because trade offers an opportunity for businesses to prosper, we've been actively promoting trade in the francophone business community. Our international trade centre has reached out to clients at several francophone events in the past year that have attracted over 500 participants. The international trade centre is also expanding its consulting services in French. Last year, we offered four seminars on trade specifically for francophone businesses. As well, francophone export development advisers have been recruited to work in Hawkesbury and Cornwall, and others are planned in the Ottawa region.

Industry Canada is committed to making Canada the most connected country in the world. The community access program is providing Internet access to communities in rural and urban areas. The number of rural francophone community access sites has increased to a current total of 86, with more to come. Workshops are being offered in French to encourage francophone communities to apply for community access sites. We are also encouraging francophone groups in urban areas to apply for local CAP sites, and all francophone school boards have been contacted and encouraged to apply. We have also recruited several francophone members to the urban CAP program review committee.

[Translation]

In addition, last year there was another initiative to connect francophone schools and libraries to the Internet. Last year, 260 computers and 35 printers were donated under the Computers for Schools Program.

[English]

L'Année de la Francophonie canadienne marked a renewal in our long-term commitment to serve French-speaking clients.

For example, we are making service to francophones an integral part of the communication deliverables of all our branches. This means that managers in all branches are making a commitment with regard to their mandate to implement section 41 of the Official Languages Act.

I would be pleased to answer your questions. Thank you.

[Translation]

The Vice-Joint Chair (Mr. Benoît Serré): Thank you, Ms. Hohn.

Our last, but of course not least, witness, is Ms. Louise Paquette, Director General of FedNor.

• 1610

Ms. Louise Paquette (Director General, FedNor): Thank you. I am the Director General of FedNor, a federal initiative to promote economic development in Northern Ontario. FedNor is a part of Industry Canada, specifically a part of the Operations Sector.

As a francophone, I am extremely proud of francophone culture and communities in Canada. Through their courage, determination and solidarity, francophone communities have become rooted in our region, which is mostly English-speaking.

Over the past four years, there have been many positive changes at FedNor. The revitalization began with FedNor's renewal in 1998. In 1999, FedNor's budget was increased, and a Secretary of State appointed.

Today, I would like to highlight recent efforts in the workplace and in services that make it possible for us to continue providing service to minority francophone communities in the North.

First of all, I would like to outline the situation in Ontario.

[English]

FedNor's population is roughly 825,000 people, of which 26% in the northeast are francophone, which represents about 150,000 people. By contrast, in the northwest of northern Ontario, only about 4% of the population is French speaking, which is roughly 10,000 people.

I think it's also important to note that FedNor's coverage area is about 88% of the province of Ontario, which, as you can well appreciate, makes quite a challenge with respect to transportation.

[Translation]

In order to provide better service to its target population, which is so diverse and covers such a broad area, FedNor has established a geographic delivery system. This means that individual development officers are responsible for a given region in Northern Ontario.

Four years ago, only 20% of FedNor employees were bilingual. Today, over 50% of employees can speak both French and English. At our head office in Sudbury, as much as 66% of our staff are bilingual.

I was especially proud to accept, on behalf of FedNor, the Official Languages Prize recently awarded by Industry Canada in recognition of our work. Our success is largely the result of partnerships, which have improved small business access to capital, information and markets.

Now, I would like to tell you something more on our principal partners. The Community Futures Development Corporations, already mentioned by Mr. LeBlanc and the Honourable Mr. Duhamel, are a key network, an essential tool through which we can implement our programs. FedNor encourages CFDCs throughout the province to provide services to minority communities whenever a region is designated bilingual or whenever the minority is present in sufficient numbers to warrant service in both official languages.

I'm proud to tell you that a task force on services and official languages was established this year to determine what would constitute fair and equitable delivery of service in Ontario. To ensure that minority anglophone and francophone communities both receive the CFDC services they need, the task force, made up of CFDC, FedNor and Industry Canada representatives, will prepare a directory of current services and available resources, and suggest improvements and assessment strategies.

FedNor also believes that it is people in the region and the municipalities who should determine business and economic development priorities. After all, they are in the best position to do it. For example, we are actively involved in the annual convention of the Francophone Association of Municipalities of Ontario. We also play an active role in Northern Ontario communities, and have invested a great deal of energy in developing partnerships and listening to a variety of sectors.

By working closely with the regions and municipalities, FedNor helps consolidate the strengths of a regional economy, promote job creation, and implement long-term community economic development initiatives.

• 1615

FedNor also recognizes that, by working with financial institutions, educational institutions and community and sector-based associations, it also benefits from the strengths of the regional economy and community leaders.

One indispensable financial partner has been the network of credit unions. In 1999, FedNor signed an agreement with the Mouvement des caisses Desjardins to improve access to capital and promote the growth and development of francophone SMEs. The agreement will significantly improve access to funding for businesses, particularly for those requiring higher-risk loans. The loan loss reserve will be particularly helpful to francophone businesses in small communities.

FedNor has also worked with the Business Development Bank of Canada to set up NEXPRO, which provides group workshops and individual, on-site counselling for exporters.

The Collège Boréal is another important partner in enhancing Francophone business initiatives in the North. Here are some of the projects in which we have been involved.

We supported the establishment of a francophone business group in Norther Ontario, in addition to sponsoring a trip to Moncton to share good business practices with a community that looked a lot like the nickel capital.

Another initiative is the Entrepreneurship On-Line Project, a pilot project that provides access to on-line training for adults, and increases the number of innovative learning opportunities to adult francophones in Northern Ontario who wish to start up a business.

In co-operation with the Association des maisons de commerce du Québec and the Collège Boréal, we provided two workshops on business concerns.

In 1999, FedNor supported Mission France, an initiative to assess potential economic development strategy transfers in the greater Sudbury area.

Entrepreneurship development is founded on the inspiration and talents of young people in the North. Many initiatives, including a new FedNor program, ensure that young people can be drawn into the process of economic development. I will mention only two such projects. One is the Mondial de l'entrepreneuriat jeunesse, which I have already mentioned: 40 students from secondary school in Northern Ontario took part in the workshops.

[English]

I must also mention FedNor's youth internship program. Through this program we've invested about $4.8 million to help 192 interns across northern Ontario, and our recent survey would suggest that 96% of these young people are staying in northern Ontario.

The objective of the program, which was launched as a pilot, was to try to keep some of our young people in the north, because we have a serious exodus of our young people to places like Ottawa—which you can understand.

[Translation]

I also mentioned partnerships with community and sector-based associations. I would like to read you an excerpt from a letter by Linda Savard, Director of the Chambre économique de l'Ontario:

I would like to thank FedNor very warmly for its participation in the Gala de la francophonie. Your investment helped us ensure the event's success.

The first gala was an opportunity to strengthen French Ontario's economic contribution and to recognize demonstrated excellence among francophone entrepreneurs.

FedNor also supported the Association des francophones du nord-ouest de l'Ontario, in their development of a business plan to establish a francophone community centre in Thunder Bay.

During a conference organized by the Conseil de la coopération de l'Ontario and the Union culturelle des Franco-Ontariennes, in partnership with FedNor, we discussed common approaches and solutions that would enable francophone communities to participate fully in economic development activities.

FedNor also seized the opportunity to recognize the francophone contribution to economic growth, and to further encourage the development and enhancement of French-speaking minorities by highlighting the Année de la Francophonie.

We supported a number of projects as part of Année de la Francophonie canadienne activities, including strategic hearings in five Northern Ontario regions: Timmins, Thunder Bay, North Bay, Kapuskasing and New Liskeard. The hearings represented the first step in a strategic planning process by the community and for the community.

• 1620

The list of our francophone partners is very long, and includes the Carrefour francophone in Sudbury, Centre culturel de Timmins, Fédération des femmes canadiennes-françaises de l'Ontario, Conseil des arts de Hearst, Club d'âge d'or de la Vallée, Université Laurentienne and Direction Jeunesse, to name but a few.

A knowledge of both official languages is something that enriches all Canadians. It goes without saying that, from a purely economic standpoint, bilingualism in Northern Ontario opens the door to many business opportunities.

Thank you. I would be pleased to answer your questions.

The Vice-Joint Chair (Mr. Benoît Serré): Thank you, Ms. Paquette. May I ask whether you have provided the committee clerk with a copy of your remarks?

Ms. Louise Paquette: No, I have not.

The Vice-Joint Chair (Mr. Benoît Serré): I would like to ask you to do so, because then I can distribute copies of your remarks in both official languages to all committee members.

Traditionally, an official opposition member asks the first question. Since there are none here, however, the first question will be from Mr. Plamondon.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: I don't know where to start. I have a great many questions, because the topics you have touched on are extremely broad. Many people do not understand how these agencies work. We are not used to working with agencies that focus on specific regions and are never mentioned in current event contexts, if you see what I mean.

I remember that there were discussions at some point about creating a virtual CFDC to serve all anglophones in Quebec. Was such a CFDC set up or is it still in the planning stages?

Mr. André Gladu: It is still in the planning stages. There is also a similar project to create a CFDC for francophones across Canada.

Last week the first Canada-wide meeting of CFDCs was held; it was attended by representatives of some 250 CFDCs. I am expecting that initiative to become a reality over the coming year, but I must admit that at this point it is not very far along.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: Do the Industry Canada representatives plan to set up a CFDC for francophones in Ontario?

Ms. Louise Paquette: We will not have a CFDC for francophones only, since in Northern Ontario, the population we serve consists of both anglophones and francophones. The contracts stipulate that CFDCs must meet the needs of the community. So I can say that we do not plan to create a CFDC for Ontario francophones.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: Why would a CFDC in Ontario need to meet the needs of both communities, whereas in Quebec it can target the needs of anglophones only? Is there not a contradiction in that?

Mr. André Gladu: No. It is important to understand at the outset what CFDCs are.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: I know perfectly well what they are. You said that one of your projects was to create a virtual CFDC for all anglophones in Quebec, and I asked you whether you intended to create one for francophones in Ontario. You answered that both communities had to be served. Why would it be any different in Quebec?

Mr. André Gladu: As we indicated in the agreement we concluded with the CFDC Network, approximately 10 of the 54 CFDCs in Quebec are required to offer services and documentation in both official languages, since they serve regions where there is a significant anglophone community.

The CFDC Network has come up with the idea of creating a virtual CFDC for all anglophone communities in Quebec because, in some regions, the language skills of CFDC employees do not necessarily meet the needs of the anglophone communities. After all, in some regions served by the CFDCs, there are only a small number of anglophones and the CFDC employees may not always be able to meet their needs. In addition to these 10 or so CFDCs that already provide bilingual services, the CFDC Network has decided to set up this virtual CFDC to be able to respond to the needs of anglophones in the approximately 40 other CFDCs.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: I admire your high-mindedness.

• 1625

I will now come to you. I do not want to contradict you, but you said that you were very proud of the fact that 50% of the staff were able to serve the population in Northern Ontario in both official languages. That percentage seems fine to me, but I presume that if 50% of employees in Quebec's CFCDs were bilingual, you would be up-in-arms and find that unacceptable for anglophones in Quebec.

In your opinion, what proportion of Quebec's CFDC employees are able to offer services in both official languages? I come from a riding where 99.8% of the population is francophone, and the CFDC offers services in both languages. The employees may not be perfectly fluent in English, but they are able to provide these services. I assume that the situation is the same across Quebec.

Mr. André Gladu: I am unable to answer your question, since the CFDC Network is funded by us but not controlled by us. The CFDCs do not represent the Economic Development Agency of Canada for the regions of Quebec. All I can tell you is that the agreement we have concluded with the CFDC network stipulates that about ten of the CFDCs must be able to provide services in English. As for the 44 or so other CFDCs, I could not tell you what proportion of their employees are bilingual.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: May I continue my questioning, Mr. Chairman? I have eight minutes, right?

The Vice-Joint Chair (Mr. Benoît Serré): You have five minutes left.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: There are not many of us in any case.

I will carry on with my questions because I am on this Official Languages Committee and I am trying to find out if the francophone minority in Ontario is as well served in Ontario as the anglophone community in Quebec. That is the point of my comments.

Would it be accurate to say that there are 700,000 anglophones in Quebec?

Mr. André Gladu: According to the 1996 census, anglophones account for 12% of the population.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: I am talking about anglophones and not allophones.

Mr. André Gladu: The 1996 census indicates that 12% of people in Quebec are anglophones.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: So we are talking about 12% of 7.8 million people.

How many francophones are there in Ontario?

Ms. Louise Paquette: In the northeast, they account for 24% of the population, so 150,000 people, and in the northwest, 4%, or 10,000 people.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: How many francophones are there in Ontario as a whole? Are there a million? Good, that is not so bad in terms of development of the francophone population.

Now let us look at the effort that should be devoted to providing the same services to francophone minorities in Ontario as to anglophone minorities in Quebec, which are about the same size.

I listened to what you had to say today. I am pleased for Quebec anglophones, since it would appear that your organizations are much more concerned about providing good service to that minority, which has historical rights that have always been recognized in Quebec and that benefit from provincial policies in the area of social services, health and education, from kindergarten to university. That is fine and we all agree that that is the way things should be. However, we should also agree that that is how things should be for francophones in the rest of Canada.

What I find frustrating is that your organizations are telling us that they fund these services, but that they do not administer them. Well, that is the way it should be in Ontario as well. We know what happens every time the federal government withdraws from some jurisdiction or privatizes services. Take for example the Gens de l'air at Air Canada. Before the airline was privatized, 15% of the pilots were francophone and that has now fallen to 12%. That was not very long ago.

If the federal government wants to help communities to develop and if it provides funding without setting any conditions, the result will be that services will be offered in both languages in Quebec and only in English elsewhere in Canada, except where there is a very high concentration of francophones, such as the Minister's riding of Saint-Boniface and some areas of Northern Ontario, although I have been told that less than 50% of the staff were capable of answering people in the language of their choice. Imagine that. When you want to help a community to develop and you are not able to speak people's language, you are out of luck. There are 50% there. That is far from 100%.

• 1630

That is why I think that a lot of work needs to be done before we can say that these services are administered in accordance with the spirit of official languages, which is the idea that citizens are provided with services in both languages.

I will not ask you to answer, since the type of response I am looking for can only come from the Minister. Mr. Duhamel could surely say something on this.

Mr. Ronald Duhamel: Yes, he certainly could, and with a great deal of enthusiasm.

I was born in Saint-Boniface quite a number of years ago. I went back about 20 years ago as assistant deputy minister for French-language education. At that time, things were not easy. Franco-Manitobans have had difficulties throughout their history. In all sincerity, I must say that the past 20 years has seen increasing broad-mindedness among people in Saint-Boniface, in Manitoba and throughout Western Canada. Take my community, for an example. Twenty years ago, when I was assistant deputy minister for French-language education, I had only a small office, which has become much bigger. A good while back, this office took on responsibility for providing services in French. We have our French-language school board, our French cultural centre and, for those who go to church, religious services in French. We have our films, our radio, our television, etc.

In Manitoba, if you want to live in French you can. You really have to want to and the desire has to be there, since the francophone community is small, about 50,000 people out of 1 million. Although Saskatchewan is the same size, there are only 20,000 francophones and they are less concentrated, although their situation has improved. In Alberta and British Columbia, there are 55,000 francophones. British Columbia has a French-language school board.

I am not trying to make you believe that there is no room for improvement. On the contrary, a great deal needs to be done. However, there have been great improvements. If memory serves, Manitoba has just over 5,000 students in schools where the first language is French. Over 17,000 young anglophones attend immersion programs and are educated in French. So there is an interest among anglophones.

A person who comes from a minority community, as was the case for me being born in the West, learns very early on that it is always necessary to fight. I do not mean this in a pejorative sense, but we always need to try to make other people understand that we require services that meet our linguistic and other needs.

My community is a very proud one, as are all the other communities in Western Canada, the Atlantic provinces and the francophone communities in Ontario. What is interesting in all that is that all these communities are at different levels of development. For example, I think that most people in the West accept the fact that Manitoba has more in the way of infrastructures in such areas as education than other provinces do. We are continuing to make progress and, in my opinion, that is what is important. I believe that most people feel that it is an asset to speak more than one language and to speak Canada's two official languages.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: That is where we disagree.

Mr. Ronald Duhamel: I beg your pardon?

Mr. Louis Plamondon: That is where...

The Vice-Joint Chair (Mr. Benoît Serré): You have had nearly 15 minutes, and it is time now to give your colleagues an opportunity to ask questions. We will come back to you right after.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: Since this is the first time you have been in the chair, I will give you a chance.

The Vice-Joint Chair (Mr. Benoît Serré): You might be interested to know, Mr. Plamondon, that there are over 400,000 anglophones and allophones in Ontario whose second language is French. Given the popularity of immersion programs, people are predicting that, in ten years or so, Ontario will have more anglophones who can speak French than people whose mother tongue is French. Although there are only 600,000 francophones, there are nearly a million people in Ontario who speak French. That is a fact that should not be overlooked.

I will now move to the Honourable Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: I am a bit on my own here because in Ontario, Mr. Plamondon, there is no council or agency for economic development or employability.

• 1635

When Ms. Hohn speaks, it is on behalf of Industry Canada. She is not speaking for one region, one group or one association. There are not any in Ontario. There is FedNor in Northern Ontario, but it is funded by Industry Canada and they are the ones who talk to us about it today. Mr. Gladu represents the Economic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions of Quebec, but he reports to Mr. Cauchon and to Mr. Duhamel.

Mr. Duhamel, I am very grateful to you. I would like to congratulate you on what you have done for francophones. You know, however, that in eastern, southern and western Ontario, there is practically nothing in the way of economic development or employability programs for our young people.

I am not complaining. We tried. I do not know what else to do. We lack political and other resources. We are told that because we are in Ontario we are rich. The francophone minority in Ontario is not rich. In any case, it is not richer than the anglophone minority in Quebec. You cannot make a comparison.

I have two questions. They will be very short. Minister, in your organization in the West, what percentage of francophone projects were accepted last year and this year? I am talking about the 1998-99 and 1999-2000 fiscal years. If you do not have the answer, please send it to me. Do you have an idea?

Mr. Ronald Duhamel: I can tell you honestly that I have no idea. An agreement was reached with the community. It was provided with a certain amount of money and told to make decisions on the basis of those resources. So it was community people who decided. Did I misunderstand you? I am sorry. They were given a certain amount of money for their operations, for example, they said what they wanted to do with it. So it would be very difficult for me to answer your question, except if someone here has the numbers. We are talking about 30, 40 or 50 initiatives.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: I want each agency to give me its percentages for the past two years. We will see if there has been any progress or not. Section 41 says that you do promotion. I want to know if you have done any. In Quebec, I think around 12% of your projects are for anglophones. I know the numbers. This is not a question of ignorance. I know what I am saying, but I wanted to get these statistics from all the agencies, in the West, the Atlantic Region and for FedNor, if they have them.

Mr. Ronald Duhamel: We will do that and I can say that yes, there has been enormous progress. I will share that information with you in a very short time.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: I am pleased to hear that. You can assert, based on what you have said, that there has been movement in the right direction.

Mr. Ronald Duhamel: Yes. We have made huge progress in the last two years. I mean that honestly and we will prove it to you, black on white. We were able to make a lot of progress thanks to the open-mindedness of certain people who shared our vision. Yes, there has been a lot of progress.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: I believe you publish a small booklet or annual report on the percentages. I have not received it. Could you send me a copy?

Mr. Ronald Duhamel: It will be our pleasure to do so.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: Ms. Hohn, you talked about Ontario as a whole. You spoke as if you were in charge of an economic development and job program for Ontario. Do you work for Industry Canada?

Ms. Brigitte Hohn: Yes, that's correct.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: In your presentation, you highlighted the development of high-tech resources.

Ms. Brigitte Hohn: Yes, that's right.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: You work for Industry Canada.

Ms. Brigitte Hohn: Yes.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: You are a director general or have a similar title. You work in a fairly senior capacity.

Ms. Brigitte Hohn: Yes.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: You have not been in charge of the francophone file for a long time.

Ms. Brigitte Hohn: No, but we have nevertheless made a lot of progress.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: How long have you been in charge of francophone affairs: one year or two? I had the impression that a francophone living in Eastern or Western Canada who tried to get help from Industry Canada in the area of high-tech development, had as hard a time in getting that help as would a sinner getting into heaven. It was impossible.

• 1640

But I heard that things have changed. Could you please send me information on those positive changes? I want to know how many projects you have supported or helped along or responded to in a positive manner. What are the results? Is this possible?

Ms. Brigitte Hohn: I will ask David if he has any figures. Do you have any statistics on the projects we have already carried out? It may not be possible.

Mr. David Dallimore (Director, Information Highway Applications (Planning, Analysis and Public Affairs), Regional Ontario Office, Industry Canada): Could we get those figures to you after the meeting?

[English]

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: Of course.

[Translation]

Mr. David Dallimore: Yes.

[English]

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: You see, we're talking about article 41.

Mr. David Dallimore: Yes.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier: Article 41 says promotion, development. So I'm asking you, what have you done to promote? The only way I can get that answer is to ask you how many projects. Do you understand?

Mr. David Dallimore: Yes.

[Translation]

The Vice-Joint Chair (Mr. Benoît Serré): Thank you very much.

Senator Joan Thorne Fraser (De Lorimier, Lib.): Allow me to say that I am starting to get a little tired of hearing people insinuate that Anglo-Quebeckers are Canada's spoiled children. I don't know how many people in this room know, for instance, that Minister Louise Beaudoin wants to abolish the bilingual status of some municipalities which lie at the very heart of the anglophone communities in Quebec. She wants to merge these municipalities with the City of Montreal and forbidden them from retaining their bilingual status. No one outside of Quebec and very few people within the province, except for anglophones, have raised a word in protest.

[English]

Monsieur Gladu, at the end of your testimony you referred to a report that you had just received from English Quebec groups outlining their concerns and their needs. I know it takes a long time for bureaucracies to digest reports of this nature, but could you give us a little more information about what that report said and what we can look for in the way of a response, particularly in the way of a timeline?

[Translation]

Mr. André Gladu: I have to honestly admit that I cannot specifically answer your question. I think you'll understand why. First, it is important to explain the context in which the report was written. Precisely two years ago, in May 1998, Human Resources Development Canada signed an agreement with the eight main organizations representing anglophone communities in Quebec to help people become more employable. At that point, the possibility was raised to sign a future agreement which could also include other federal departments, such as those in charge of economic development, like Industry Canada, or the agency I represent, or others.

So anglophone communities decided to go one step further with the agreement and to study and assess their needs, as broken down by region. The assessment was only released last week. I myself received a copy of the report over the weekend. To be honest, I did not read it. I can only tell you what the next stages will be. Each department, in co-operation with Human Resources Development, which co-chairs a committee with anglophone communities, will study the report and decide how to proceed.

There is no doubt that it is possible—and I insist on the word “possible”, since it will also depend on the willingness of anglophone communities—that there might be an agreement similar to the one signed in the rest of Canada by francophones living outside Quebec. Unless I am mistaken, nine federal departments which concern themselves with issues relating to francophone communities outside Quebec are party to the agreement.

So I was alluding to this type of study or analysis. But to be perfectly honest, I haven't read it yet.

• 1645

[English]

Senator Joan Thorne Fraser: Would it be possible for the committee to receive a copy of this report?

Mr. André Gladu: There is absolutely no problem there. It will be my pleasure.

Senator Joan Thorne Fraser: As soon as possible. And as soon as there is an official response to it, could we receive a copy of that as well, Chair? Perhaps, you could then come back and speak with us more about this.

Mr. André Gladu: Fine. That's no problem.

[Translation]

Senator Joan Thorne Fraser: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The Vice-Joint Chair (Mr. Benoît Serré): Thank you very much, Ms. Fraser.

Back to Mr. Plamondon.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: Mr. Chairman, I was surprised to hear the Senator's first sentence. Make no mistake about it: her remarks were specifically intended for me.

Senator Joan Thorne Fraser: I wasn't only targeting you, Mr. Plamondon.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: She was not only targeting me. Believe me, Madame Senator, it is possible to compare the rights of anglophones living in Quebec and those of francophones. There are some francophones in our party, in both the Senate and in the House of Commons, who don't come from Quebec, and can assure you that if they had only 10% of the rights held by anglophones in Quebec, they would be in heaven.

That is their objective. Some of my friends are anglophones and live in Quebec. I live in Quebec and have anglophone friends. However, my anglophone friends would make it quite clear that there is no comparing their rights with those of francophones living outside Quebec. We Quebeckers are proud of that fact. We are proud to give those rights to our minority. However, I in no way want what I am saying to be construed as saying that I want to take those rights away or that I am against them. Never!

The reason I am focussing on anglophone rights in Quebec is so that the francophone minority may one day do as well. That is all I am saying. If you want a debate on bilingual or non-bilingual communities, then let us use Ottawa, Canada's capital, as a starting point. It will not even have bilingual status. Only then should we discuss Montreal's West Island—and you might learn things which will make your hair stand on end.

Let me now address my remarks to you, Mr. Minister. You explained your bilingual ideal a little earlier. Ms. Copps is a proponent of the idea—and you have championed it recently—that the Official Languages Act be used to help more people in Canada become bilingual.

But that is not the spirit of the Official Languages Act. The spirit of the Act is institutional bilingualism giving access to both founding peoples, to both minorities and both majorities, to government services in the language of their choice. Bilingual Canadians?—so much the better. One of my daughters speaks five languages and another speaks three. Good for them. I would like them to learn even more. But that is not the issue.

When you analyze the situation and say that schooling and economic services have improved and you say that in addition, there are more bilingual people, you are forgetting an important factor. In your province, according to Statistics Canada the assimilation rate is 60%. It is 72% in British Columbia. In New Brunswick, as Senator Robichaud is well aware, there has been a 1% drop in francophones. In Quebec, the anglophone minority is maintaining itself. According to the most recent Statistics Canada report, analyses were conducted and in Quebec there is no assimilation. So where is the problem? The problem lies with that of the francophone minority.

More of an effort must be made and more funding provided, while preserving the rights of anglophones in Quebec and the services available to them, of course. That is the reality that you are refusing to analyze. I mentioned it to Ms. Copps last time and now I am telling you: you are refusing to face the situation. I told Ms. Copps that the assimilation rate for francophones in her riding was 80%.

We are inevitably moving towards a virtual elimination of francophones in Canada. Look at Montreal. At present, 48% of residents in Montreal are not francophones. And Montreal is in Quebec. Three percent of the people in North America are francophone. We will have to do a lot more than just make sweeping statements in order to maintain both cultures and both languages. Otherwise these are empty words that do not describe Canadian reality at all.

• 1650

Mr. Ronald Duhamel: Mr. Chairman, I simply want to tell my colleague that he is assuming that I have not understood. When I talked about other Canadians who have learned the language, I was not necessarily referring to that phenomena, which I find very interesting and important, in keeping with sections 41 and 42. It arose out of interest, if you will.

I understand that the Act is in place to provide services to francophone and anglophone minorities, but in the discussion, I was simply recognizing that such people existed. Many of them, in passing, are seeking out services in French. They want to listen to the radio in French, watch TV, etc. That is what I was highlighting.

As regards assimilation, you are not unaware that it happens everywhere, in all minorities. We have been hearing for a long time that we are going to disappear. Sir, we are not disappearing. We will never give up. There will always be francophones in the West. They will always be there. There might be fewer of them, and I agree with you on that. I rarely agree with you, but I do agree with you on that. Yes, it is true that there are a lot of things to do. Yes, it is true that we will have to get better at doing what we do. Yes, it is true that it is undoubtedly important to spend more to do more. I agree. But all of a sudden, because there has been a lot of assimilation, am I going to abandon my own family? Am I simply going to say: No, the Act exists; why should we do anything? On the contrary, I am going to do more with what I have.

When we talk about linguistic rights, I do not know where we are going when we draw comparisons. As you know, it is not like stepping on a scale and saying: You weigh 202.2 lbs and I weigh 212.1. That can be compared quite easily.

Why don't we simply say that there are important rights that are granted to certain minorities in various provinces? Can we not do the same for everyone? Why can't we learn from what others are doing?

I will conclude with an example, Mr. Chairman. Senator Gauthier asked me an excellent question. Perhaps I misunderstood it somewhat, but when he asked me if we had made any progress, I told him that we were making progress and that I was going to give him some examples.

I took up my position two and a half years ago. My officials and I set up economic and community development units. We have roughly 30 officers who are working on trying to determine what could be undertaken in French.

For example, we have projects involving francophones from out West who go to work in Cameroun and Mali in the area of education. That happened quite recently. That is progress. Then there is the agreement with nine departments that Mr. Gladu mentioned earlier. We have others with the provinces and in some cases with municipalities.

Am I describing something abstract? No. I am trying to tell you what we are doing. I am trying to help you understand, colleagues, that not everything is perfect, but goodness knows that we are making progress and that we are going to continue to do so. I would like to conclude by saying that we should try to learn from each other, but not in a conflictual environment. Instead, we need to ask ourselves what is happening elsewhere, look at what we can borrow, build or construct. That is what you do when you build a country. You learn. You look at what is working well and you do more. That is what I want to do.

I am not at all interested in comparisons. Those are political debates, and everyone knows it. People push their point of view instead of someone else's. Lets try and look at what we can do together for the people we represent. I am the member for Saint-Boniface, in Manitoba, but I am also a member at the service of all Canadians, like you, dear colleagues.

So let us try to work together for the entire country, by trying to improve people's lot, be it in terms of linguistic rights or economic development.

The Vice-Joint Chair (Mr. Benoît Serré): Mr. Plamondon, have you finished?

• 1655

Mr. Louis Plamondon: We could turn this into a debate. The debate is not political. He told me that comparisons are political. I can compare. When I compared the situation of two minorities, I note that one needs more help than the other, and I think that in our spending, we should make the minority that needs more help, that is more in danger, a priority. We will never disappear as individuals, but the danger does exist for society, for collective life, for the arts and for social life. That point is being made. It was brought up again recently during the debate on the Montfort Hospital, which is not over.

If we compare francophone hospitals outside Quebec to anglophone hospitals in Montreal, we would see that there are two anglophone hospitals in Montreal. There are also three anglophone universities in Montreal. That is wonderful and must continue. There is McGill, Loyola...

Senator Joan Thorne Fraser: McGill and Concordia, that makes two.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: And Loyola.

Senator Joan Thorne Fraser: It is part of Concordia.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: Say there are two, if you want. How many are there in Ontario?

Mr. Ronald Duhamel: There are several anglophone universities.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: How many francophone universities are there in Ontario? The context is also different, of course. It should stay like that, but we do nevertheless need to compare the situation by looking at what minority we are talking about. That is always the problem here. Each time that the Commissioner of Official Languages meets with us or that a minister appears before us, all is well. They pat themselves on the back and say they are making progress, but we have not changed our way of analyzing the situation in Canada. If we sincerely want the two languages and two cultures to develop, we have to admit that there is a problem. Only 3% of the population in North America is francophone. It is in a bit more difficulty than the anglophone minority in Quebec. I will never believe the opposite.

So let us orient our polices and spend our money accordingly. That does not mean cutting spending for the other minority. That does not mean that it should no longer receive any money. I think that the group dynamics are completely different in both cases, and it is in that sense that I am worrying. I do not think I am being alarmist, but instead realistic when I say that there is a problem and that there is a bad perception on the part of the federal government.

You are right in saying that the minority is also experiencing some fatigue. That is a phenomenon associated with assimilation. Someone was even criticizing the dynamic minority in New Brunswick...

The Vice-Joint Chair (Mr. Benoît Serré): Mr. Plamondon, I must stop you there.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: Can I finish my sentence?

The Vice-Joint Chair (Mr. Benoît Serré): Okay.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: The dynamic minority in New Brunswick has led battles over French. Senator Robichaud was involved. A university professor in New Brunswick whose name has slipped my mind wrote, in a book that I read, that the province's elite, believing that everything had been resolved, had abandoned the battle when the province was made officially bilingual, whereas the battle should have continued. I was surprised when I read his book. So the battle must be ongoing, but at the same time, the government must spend money in the right areas, and that is the sense of my comments. I think we share the same principle.

The Vice-Joint Chair (Mr. Benoît Serré): Thank you, Mr. Plamondon.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: Thank you.

The Vice-Joint Chair (Mr. Benoît Serré): Senator Robichaud, you have the floor.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: Get mad at me now, Senator, it is your turn.

Senator Louis-J. Robichaud (L'Acadie—Acadia, Lib.): I do not like it when the discussions at the Official Languages Committee degenerate into a political debate that pit anglophones against francophones. I do not like that.

We live as a community. That is how we were born, and that is how we will die. And it will last for centuries. We are going to live side by side and we should do so in a harmonious way, as friends.

I have expressed some pessimism with respect to francophone minorities outside New Brunswick, in the Atlantic provinces, Ontario and perhaps even in Manitoba, but I get more and more optimistic when I hear statements like those the Minister has made this afternoon. I have been listening to him for several years, and he has not changed. I am impressed. If there were more people like Mr. Duhamel in the country, there would be a lot more cordiality and agreement.

• 1700

I was also impressed with the statements the others made, and I am much more optimistic with respect to the future of the country and bilingualism in Canada than I was a few weeks ago, as a result of what I have heard this afternoon. I congratulate the Minister and his acolytes.

The Vice-Joint Chair (Mr. Benoît Serré): Thank you very much, Senator. Would you like to reply?

Mr. Ronald Duhamel: Mr. Chairman, I want to thank Senator Robichaud. Senator, thank you. You are very generous and I obviously greatly appreciate that. It is too bad that Mr. Plamondon has left, because I wanted to tell him that I do not pat myself on the back...

Mr. Louis Plamondon: No, not at all, I am back.

Mr. Ronald Duhamel: Oh! He is here, he is here. I was trying to tell him what I see.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: I came back, because I realize that if I were to leave, there would be no one left from the opposition and the committee would have to stop sitting. I came to tell the chairman that I am going to stay so that we can listen to you.

Mr. Ronald Duhamel: I simply wanted to tell him that I am not patting myself on the back. Senator Simard has sent some compliments my way. I was trying to describe the reality as I saw it.

I am also encouraged with the possibility of doing more work together. I said that comparisons were unhealthy. Do you know why this is the case? Is the Faculté Saint-Jean a university in Edmonton or not? The Collège universitaire de Saint-Boniface is linked to the University of Manitoba and they are very proud of that. Mr. Plamondon, if you go to Saint-Boniface and say that there is not a French-language university, be careful, because even I could not save you.

Voices: Oh, oh!

Mr. Ronald Duhamel: There is also the University of Ottawa, Laurentian University and the University of Moncton. We are up to five. Are they better than the two or three English-language universities in Quebec?

I think that can sometimes prevent us from making progress. It is good to speak honestly, without criticizing or taking the occasional stab at each other, to see how we can improve the lot of these linguistic communities. That is what I want to see here. It is not complicated.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: We must take a look at ourselves to see how we are as francophones and how we can improve. That is what I was questioning. What are you doing in that area? You addressed that in part.

Mr. Ronald Duhamel: I will have to come and see you and have a talk with you.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: We will have to meet often.

Mr. Ronald Duhamel: I am under the impression that you are having some trouble understanding today. But that's okay; I will repeat myself a second, third, fourth or even a fifth time if necessary. For you, I will even repeat myself seven to ten times.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: And I will do the same.

The Vice-Joint Chair (Mr. Benoît Serré): Thank you very much, Mr. Minister.

Before wrapping up, I have a request for Ms. Paquette. Several members of the committee, including Senator Gauthier, have asked for examples of specific projects, be it at Industry Canada, or one of the various agencies, that have helped promote the second language.

I know that in my riding, FedNor is currently financing a project for a francophone economic chamber for the Tri-Town region. Other projects of that nature have specifically been funded by FedNor not only to help our francophone communities flourish, but also assist in economic development.

I would like to ask Ms. Paquette to send us a list of these projects, not necessarily today, but to our committee clerk. We could distribute the list to committee members, who would be in a position to note that what Ms. Hohn has committed to do for southern Ontario is also being done.

Ms. Louise Paquette: Yes.

Senator Joan Thorne Fraser: And for anglophones in Quebec as well, please.

The Vice-Joint Chair (Mr. Benoît Serré): Okay. I want to thank our guests. This has been an excellent meeting. See you next time.

The meeting is adjourned.