LANG Committee Meeting

STANDING JOINT COMMITTEE ON OFFICIAL LANGUAGES

COMITÉ MIXTE PERMANENT DES LANGUES OFFICIELLES

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Tuesday, February 17, 1998

• 1534

[Translation]

The Joint Chairman (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool (Tracadie, Lib.)): Good day, dear colleagues. I call the meeting to order. I believe we have quorum: the official opposition is present and since at least four committee members are present, we can hear witnesses.

• 1535

Today we welcome Mr. Réjean Lachapelle and Mr. Bruce B. Petrie from Statistics Canada.

At our meeting in December we heard the last report from Statistics Canada. We are pleased that you could respond to our invitation to clarify or explain some of the data in that report because we know that demographics, especially for minority groups in Canada, is a very serious and very relevant question.

I would therefore invite you, sir, to make your presentation. We will then ask questions. Mr. Lachapelle.

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle (Director, Demographics Division, Statistics Canada): Thank you. I am the Director of the Demographics Division of Statistics Canada. Mr. Petrie is the Assistant Chief Statistician; he is responsible for social statistics, including the Census. My Division is responsible for the linguistic questions in the census and that is why I am before you today.

To begin, I will bring you up to date on changes that were made to the language questions in both the 1991 and 1996 Censuses. I will then report very briefly on a few of the trends that came out of the last Census, based on the analysis we released last December 2^nd. Finally, I will discuss the trials we are planning in order to make the language data collected from the 2001 Census more relevant to Canadians.

Since 1971, we have mostly collected Census data through self- enumeration. Households receive a form that lists questions directed to each household member. In many cases, a single person takes care of completing the questionnaire for the entire household. Millions of Canadians are thus acting as Census representatives. The success of the Census depends on their cooperation. We must make their task easier by providing a simple form, with questions that are as clear as possible.

[English]

The 1991 and 1996 censuses, like the previous ones, had two major types of forms, the long form and the short form. In an effort to reduce the response burden on Canadians, four out of five households received the short form. It contained questions directed to the household as well as six questions directed to each household member. One of these questions was on mother tongue. The other asked each household member about their link to the reference person, their sex, their date of birth, and their marital and common-law status.

This form did not use the expression “mother tongue”, because it does not mean the same thing to all respondents. To be less ambiguous we directly asked what was the language that this person first learned at home in childhood and still understands.

The question on mother tongue includes a condition that often seems quite surprising to people unfamiliar with our country's census history. The condition that the language first learned be still understood goes back to the 1941 census. It was introduced to improve the estimates of language assimilation, especially among the French group.

In fact, assimilation was measured at that time by comparing two categories of results, those from the ethnic origin question and those from the mother tongue question. If we did not specify that mother tongue be still understood, people of French ethnic origin who had learned French first as a child but no longer understood it would be considered part of the unassimilated group. To avoid underestimating the extent of language assimilation, the question on mother tongue was refined to include a condition that has been traditional since that time.

Four out of every five households, as I have previously mentioned, complete the short form. The other one out of five households receives a long form. It lists about 50 questions, including of course the same questions as the short form.

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We have made several innovations to help improve the quality of language data. One of these is a simpler design of the long form, which made the respondent's task easier. Another innovation was to group together all the questions on language, paying particular attention to the order in which they appeared on the form. There were four successive questions asking about knowledge of English and French, knowledge of non-official languages, language spoken most often at home and mother tongue. This last question obviously used the same wording as the short form.

Questions on knowledge of languages appear first, making it easier for respondents to understand the following questions on language spoken most often at home and mother tongue, which in turn improved data quality. In fact, the number of inconsistent and inaccurate answers diminished from 1986 to 1991 and remained low in 1996. There was a significant reduction in the proportion of multiple answers, which experts consider unstable. From 1986 to 1991, the proportion of multiple answers to the question on mother tongue went from 3.4% to 1.1% and remained almost the same in 1996, that is 1.4%.

[Translation]

Improving data quality is obviously a desirable objective. However, it also makes comparisons with previous Census data more difficult.

Language data from the 1991 Census can be directly compared to data from 1996, but it takes complex operations to compare them to results from the earlier Censuses. This is why, in releasing 1996 language data December 2^nd of last year, we highlighted short term trends, from 1991 to 1996, as well as long term trends, from 1971 to 1996. It does not mean, however, that Census results from 1971 to 1991 cannot be used to analyze the changing language situation. I simply mean that we must be careful in making comparisons.

International migration played a significant role in the demographic growth of the last decade, and has dominated recent changes in the evolution of language composition. An increasing proportion of people report mother tongues that are neither French nor English. Conversely, the proportion of the population reporting English as a mother tongue has decreased slightly. Similar decreases have been observed in the past during periods of high international immigration.

For the group whose mother tongue is French, the 1996 results confirm a diminishing trend that has not changed since 1951. Moreover, this trend should continue, because of a lower proportion of Francophones among young people than among adults. This significant trend appears in the country as a whole and in all the provinces and territories except Quebec.

French-English bilingualism continues to progress. It is much more prevalent among Francophones that Anglophones, primarily because of the North American context. For either language group, knowledge of the other official language is directly proportional to the other group's density within the environment being considered. For example, knowledge of French among Anglophones is more frequent in areas where Francophones represent a significant proportion of the population, especially in Quebec.

But this is not the only factor explaining the level and progression of bilingualism. In fact, the frequency of bilingualism among Anglophones living outside Quebec has increased during a period marked by a decrease in the proportion of Francophones. Language shifts have increased among Francophones living outside Quebec. The more the proportion of Francophones diminishes in a given area, the more language shifts are observed there.

Instead of using the expression "language shifts", some people talk about "assimilation". We do not use the latter term for two reasons. Until the beginning of the 1970s, assimilation meant abandoning the use of the mother tongue corresponding to one's ethnic origin.

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Following a suggestion of the Royal Commission on Bilingualism and Biculturalism, the Census added, for the first time in 1971, a question on the language usually spoken, or more precisely, the language spoken most often at home. We needed an expression that described the adoption of a usual language other than the mother tongue. We chose the term "language shift" ("transfert linguistique" in French).

As well, some consider it offensive to use the term "assimilation" to describe the situation of Francophones who speak English more often at home, while they still speak French at home, though less often, or speak French in other social situations, such as at work or with friends.

The Census is a source of varied data. It collects information on fundamental aspects of the population, such as demographic characteristics, international immigration, internal migration, language, ethnicity, work, income, etc. In all these areas, it is not possible to delve as deeply as we would like to.

Besides the fact that a much longer form would add costs that could be prohibitive, the biggest roadblock would be getting the support and cooperation of Canadians. They are the ones who must invest time and energy to provide the information we request. From our indications, it appears that our questionnaire is close to its maximum acceptable length.

We pay special attention to requests from official language minorities. We consult them regularly on the content of the Census, as well as on methods of data dissemination. For minorities, the Census is a particularly significant source of data. Because of their small numbers, most other surveys do not provide accurate data on their situation.

To improve the quality of data on language shifts, we will test, in the next few months, a new double-level question on language spoken at home. We will try to evaluate whether, in the context of a Census, Canadians can provide reliable information on both the language they speak most often at home and the other languages they speak at home. This will allow us to continue comparing data with previous Censuses and to describe more completely the use of languages in the home. I would like to get your opinions about this, and about methods that might improve the relevance, usage and analysis of language data. Thank you.

The Joint Chairman (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Thank you.

Mr. Petrie, would you like to add something or would you prefer to simply answer questions?

Mr. Bruce B. Petrie (Assistant Chief Statistician, Statistics Canada): No, thank you.

The Joint Chairman (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): We will now move on to the question period. Since you are asking for our opinions, I am sure my colleagues around the table will have all kinds of them.

[English]

Ms. Meredith, would you be ready to start?

Ms. Val Meredith (South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, Ref.): Yes, thank you, Madam Chair.

I find this very interesting, and I don't think we can argue with the stats. I'm interested in knowing why there is this focus on the shifts on language used at home. You have this test in the next few months, a new double-level question on the language spoken at home, to find what the shifts are. Why are you focusing on that? Why is there a need to focus on it?

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: First, that was asked by a lot of the francophone minority in the country. They asked us to provide them with more detailed data on the language situation in the home because they claimed that using a question on language most often spoken at home underestimates the use of French at home in situations where French is used, but is used less often than English.

Ms. Val Meredith: So what we're talking about are the French minorities in other parts of Canada outside of Quebec who feel the way the census is conducted now doesn't reflect the spoken French language in the home.

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: Yes, you're correct.

Ms. Val Meredith: I'm trying to understand the way the questionnaire is worded now. It says: “What language does this person speak most often at home?” “What is the language that this person first learned at home in childhood and still understands?” “Can this person speak French or English well enough to conduct a conversation?” To me those questions would dig out that kind of information. Is it that they are not speaking French in the home, or that they are not speaking French as often in the home as they might be speaking English?

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Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: The issue in this case is.... For example, the last question is first language spoken at home in childhood; mother tongue. That's the way we define the francophone population.

From those francophones, people look at their behaviour at home, using the previous question, in language spoken most often at home. Many claim that question underestimates the use of French at home, because those who live, for example, in mixed couples and who do not often use French at home because their spouse doesn't speak French but would use it at home sometimes would like to claim they are still using French at home. That's the kind of discussion we had with those people.

We have decided—we have made no decision—we will find a way to put that in the census. The first step in the case of the census is to study the situation to look at whether it is possible to have a question like that and to add a sub-question to the question on own language and then to test it to find out if Canadians accept doing that and provide accurate answers to that question.

Ms. Val Meredith: Is there a need for that kind of information other than the feeling of self-worth or self-recognition? Is there a benefit to deciding whether French is spoken more often in the home outside the way it's responded to now? Is it statistically needed for numbers applying for funding for grants, for recognition for school boards? Is there a purpose to having that kind of information more accessible to us?

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: The need would be to display a more complete picture of the persistence of the French language. Now we have a way of assessing the evolution of the situation, but some people feel the picture needs to be more complete. Those are not the kind of data that would be used except in generally assessing the situation and knowing how far we are in the assimilation process, let us say. That will give more information on that. It will be not just one emphasis; it will add other emphases to the situation. That's essentially what those people are asking for.

[Translation]

The Joint Chairman (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Mr. Plamondon.

Mr. Louis Plamondon (Richelieu, BQ): Mr. Lachapelle, I was dumbfounded this morning when I read a press release from Statistics Canada that told me that a word had been added in the question on ethnic origin: it read "Is your ethnic origin French, English, Ukrainian or Canadian?"

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: Yes.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: It's the first time this word shows up in the statistics questionnaire. I can tell Mr. Coderre that he is of French origin and that he is proud of it. But what would he say if I asked him if he was of Canadian origin?

What is worse is that your statistics...

Mr. Denis Coderre (Bourassa, Lib.): Doubly proud.

Voices: Oh, oh!

Mr. Louis Plamondon: Yes, I thought that's what you would answer to the second question.

On the other hand, your statistics are completely off base. When we asked 9 million people what their ethnic origin was, they answered "Canadian" Therefore, all previous Censuses that had continuity will no longer have any when we analyze, for example, the assimilation rate of Francophones.

• 1555

While we are at it, you could have asked me "Are you of Acadian, Quebec, Canadian, Ukrainian, French or English origin?" It doesn't make any sense to mix nationality and ethnic origin. I was completely dumbfounded when I read that in a Statistics Canada press release this morning.

I wonder how you plan to explain the ethnolinguistic continuity rate that we always had after each referendum, or rather consultation I should say. At the federal level they talk so much about the constitution that we start to talk about it in everything! I am almost tempted to ask you if it is to hide something. I am sure that you at Statistics Canada are not involved in a "Plan B" plot. I would never believe it.

I will close on that and let you answer. Try to give me a plausible explanation that will surprise all members of the committee. How could that word have been added?

I have a second question. What I find is worse is that in reading the introduction to the booklet that accompanies the questionnaire you say that "Ancestry should not be confused with citizenship or nationality". You are a Canadian citizen of Canadian nationality.

Why has Statistics Canada mixed up the data in suggested answers to respondents? Do you realize that 9 million respondents indicated that they were of "Canadian" origin? That's hard to swallow. What's worse is that there are more in Quebec than in Canada. That shows how incoherent the whole thing is.

I have a simple explanation: 39 per cent of the people in Quebec and 19 per cent of the people in the rest of the country answered that question in that way. That shows you how incoherent the whole thing is since all the survey organizations I spoke to this morning tell me that Quebecers' first identification is continually tending toward Quebec and away from Canada and that the latter is at 9 per cent. Therefore your statistics are totally out of whack and in complete opposition to everything that can be done in terms of surveys about how people identify themselves.

I will let you answer the first question.

The Joint Chairman (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Mr. Lachapelle.

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: I will let Mr. Petrie answer that question.

Mr. Bruce Petrie: You no doubt recall the debate about the 1991 Census when that question was raised. There were strong pressures to add "Canadian" to the list of possible responses to the question on ethnic origin. We then found ourselves with some 15 possible answers to that question.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: Are you talking about the "Call me Canadian" movement of about 800,000 people who demanded that we put that in the questionnaire in 1991?

Mr. Bruce Petrie: In 1991, about 1 million people answered that they were of Canadian origin.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: Without that being one of the possible answers?

Mr. Bruce Petrie: Without that answer as part of the questionnaire. That response was 5^th in the 1991 ranking. As a result of these pressures to add Canadian origin as a possible response, we changed the list of possible answers but not the question. We therefore changed the format of the questionnaire to make this change.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: You gave in to political pressures?

Mr. Bruce Petrie: To political pressures, to pressures from respondents and to those of the data users.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: But how can you explain that someone is of Canadian ethnic origin? How can you explain that when the word "Canadian" refers to nationality? Your ethnic origin isn't Canadian, its French, English, Ukrainian, Chinese...

Senator Gérald Beaudoin (Rigaud, PC): What do the French say?

Mr. Louis Plamondon: French also. They can say they are of French origin.

Senator Gérald Beaudoin: It's the same thing.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: Quebecer of French origin, French- Canadian of ...origin. We aren't of Canadian origin. It is not an ethnic group.

Senator Jean-Claude Rivest (Stadacona, PC): For example, I am a Conservative, but of Liberal origin.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: But don't ever forget that you are of Péquiste origin.

• 1600

The Joint Chairman (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Please, let's give the gentleman a chance to answer. Senator Rivest, there are some who don't turn out well, what can I say!

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: Traditionally, until the 1971 Census, I believe, the question we asked Canadians about their ethnic origin referred to the ethnic groups of their ancestors before they arrived in North America. Later, we talked about the paternal line, which led us to stop mentioning this element in 1981; nevertheless, the idea of arrival in North America was present. At that time there were a few people who declared that they were of Canadian ethnic origin. Some even said they were of American origin. But there was no basis.

Over the years, the question became, fittingly: "What is the ethnic or cultural group of your ancestors?" When we speak of ancestors, we should perhaps specify how many generations we are talking about. In any case, my ancestor on my father's side arrived in 1653 and the one on my mother's side in 1660. Do we have to go back five, six or eight generations? Maybe that's how we have to explain it.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: You're beating around the bush, my friend. Your answer doesn't make any sense.

In Belgium, for example, you are a Belgian of Walloon or Flemish origin. If you are Swiss, you are of French-speaking or Germanic origin. Are you American? You are asked: "Are you of American origin?" But there you are asked "Are you of Ukrainian, Italian or Chinese origin?" Come on, it's always been like that, and now you go and change that in 1996.

You must admit that you have just bollixed up all previous statistical studies. There can be no more continuity. You have changed the rules of the game. To back up what?

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: No, no, no, no. I would like to point out something. There is almost no one who uses ethnic origin to measure that kind of phenomenon since the 1971 Census. The reason we talk about language shifts is that the variable used to study the general evolution of what is called the assimilation of the Francophone minorities is always the comparison between mother tongue and the language spoken most often at home.

Ethnic origin is no longer used. It was used a little in the 1971 Census and that created comparability problems in terms of the preceding Census. In fact, it was used extensively in the 50s and 60s when we did not have data on the language spoken most often at home and we compared mother tongue to ethnic origin. But in the last 20 years virtually no one uses that data.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: Absolutely not?

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: No, we still do some. Like everyone who does surveys, we make extensive use of data on mother tongue and language spoken at home. In fact, the Laurendeau-Dunton Commission itself, which was forced to use ethnic origin and mother tongue, had mentioned the weakness of using mother tongue in a context such as this one was that it was a variable that was a generation behind the event because it is a characteristic of the person at birth while ethnic origin is a characteristic of the person's ancestors.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: What is done in Belgium?

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: In Belgium, linguistic questions have not been asked since the 1948 Census. No more linguistic questions.

The Joint Chairman (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Let's move on to the next question. I'm sorry, Mr. Plamondon, you have used up your allotted time.

Mr. Denis Coderre.

Mr. Denis Coderre: Mr. Lachapelle and Mr. Petrie, welcome. I certainly do not want to be associated with the masquerade that my colleague Plamondon has just indulged in. I think some questions need to be asked and I would like to talk about official languages, if you will allow me, and especially about bilingualism. Obviously with numbers one can say what one wants and there is some give either way. However, what I find extraordinary is that the percentage of bilingualism is increasing in Canada. The increase in Ontario has been about 12 per cent. Your statistics show that in the regions, especially in the metropolitan areas, there has been an increase from one end of the country to the other between 1991 and 1996.

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Do you believe that this increase in the rate of bilingualism in Canada, in many regions, whatever they are, is a precise and concrete way of stopping what my friend might call "assimilation"?

Do you not believe that the fact that more and more French is being spoken changes the game and that, in the end, although we concede that there are problems in certain Francophone communities, as regards the language itself, there has been a significant increase in the amount of French spoken in Canada?

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: There has certainly been an increase in the number and proportion of people who speak French, who are able to speak French, either as their first or second language. We note that there has been a significant increase in French spoken as a second language in the last 25 years.

The problem is in linking all that because as this trend manifested itself, we also observed a reduction in the proportion of Francophones in almost all provinces. While there may have been exceptions for certain periods, during the last one they were very few.

There has therefore been a reduction in the proportion of Francophones due to many factors, including low fertility, that I could speak about at greater length. But at the same time there was that other trend. The relative importance of French as a first language has tended to decline while that of French as a second language has tended to increase.

In addition, as I underlined briefly in my text, it is a somewhat paradoxical aspect that leads us to believe that other factors may have been at play. It may be the improvement or the progress of the status of French in the country as a whole that has lead to this increase in the bilingualism of non-Francophones, since we would normally expect that people would react to an increase in the number of second-language speakers. Therefore, first-language speakers have tended to decline.

Mr. Denis Coderre: Could you explain that a little more fully?

How can we explain that there are more and more Anglophones learning French? My friend McTeague is an example. Why? Is it because of the legislative context? In your opinion, what are the factors that cause many more Anglophones to want to speak French?

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: The Census data does not allow us to answer that question. We can measure the evolution and identify some of the associations with other variables but we do not have any details that would allow us to identify these factors.

Mr. Denis Coderre: You take these factors and then you make some links. Is there a statistical explanation for the fact that there has been a fairly significant increase in the number of Anglophones speaking French?

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: I could give you a certain number of characteristics that stand out fairly clearly. The increase has been very strong in young people and it is fairly obviously associated with the increase in the immersion method for teaching French. It is very clear that this increase has been very strong. It is strong all across the country, especially among young people and stronger among girls than boys. It is a phenomenon that we traditionally found 25 years ago among non-Francophones outside Quebec and that was more widespread among women than men.

Mr. Denis Coderre: Finally, what you are telling me is that in studying the statistics and in looking at the factors that you just gave me, a government that wanted to protect the French language should put forward even more important measures in terms of immersion because we see that it has worked over time.

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: It has had that effect. Obviously, as a statistics organization, our goal is to describe the situation, not advise on measures to take to modify, improve or amplify it.

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Mr. Denis Coderre: I'm trying to understand. What you are telling me, in the end, and I will come back to the situation in Quebec shortly, is that a law or a policy can statistically prove its viability. You say that more and more Anglophones are learning French and that it is because of immersion courses. Therefore the government should focus its policies accordingly. You have concrete statistical proof that it works.

On the other hand, do you believe that legislation such as a law about signage protects a language or has effects that... Has the French fact in Quebec increased because of Bill 101 or Bill 186?

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: We cannot make any direct links between trends like those and legislative measures. There is a link. We would have to establish the causality chain. In a way, we are at the end of the chain when we measure a certain number of behavioural changes in the Census. But I would like you to be a bit more precise about the type of trend you would like...

Mr. Denis Coderre: My question, and it is my last one...

The Joint Chairman (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Keep your question for the second round, please, because your time is limited and Senator Rivest would like the floor.

Senator Jean-Claude Rivest: It's true that there are immersion courses but those are for individuals. As you yourself pointed out, in terms of continuity among Francophones outside Quebec, it is the community aspect that will provide a permanent basis for the language. It is not because there are x number of individuals who probably don't know each other and who decide to become bilingual that the French community will consolidate.

In that sense, immersion measures do not help the survival of the French fact outside Quebec directly.

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: In fact, it is extremely difficult to deal with that issue. One can do so as an individual but that has little direct link to the type of data that we measure. It goes without saying that what we measure is the evolution of the number and proportion of people who speak French as a second language or of those who are bilingual among the non-Francophones. As I pointed out, there have been significant increases in that area, especially among young people, and that can be associated, which seems natural enough, to observed changes in the school system.

As for the evolution in the Francophone communities, which is not necessarily associated with areas where there are concentrations of Francophone communities, there may be indirect factors related to this phenomenon. For example, the fact that there is an increase in exogamy among Francophones when their spouses in other groups know French more often, could have an effect. It is one among others, but it may not be immediate.

Senator Jean-Claude Rivest: That is an excellent answer. If the law on signage has not increased the number of Francophones in Quebec, then no doubt you don't have any statistics that would show that the signage law in Quebec has decreased the number of Anglophones in Quebec.

I will now talk about assimilation. You seem to me a bit prudent. I understand that terminology can be delicate at the political level because different people can use the term, but when someone or a family no longer speaks the mother tongue, when you say that is a language shift, that is an euphemism. It doesn't change anything. I can understand your two reservations regarding the term "assimilation". I don't know in which box you count a man who uses French when he meets one of his friends but no longer speaks it at home, but for me he is no longer a Francophone. It's somewhat political, political in the finest sense of the term. It's "politically correct".

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: That is not a new phenomenon. As I said, Statistics Canada hasn't used it, at least in the last 25 years. It could have been. I don't see any objection to it.

• 1615

Senator Jean-Claude Rivest: Statistically, you see no objection to saying that those people have been assimilated.

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: No, not if that helps people communicate better, it's not a problem. Moreover, it is frequent, when we try to use terminology that is very precise so that people understand exactly what we are talking about instead of using general terms that could be defined in many different ways.

When we use the term "language shift", we are talking about something very specific. When people use the same type of data and talk about something broader, we don't have any objection, but as in many other areas that can lead to confusion.

Senator Jean-Claude Rivest: I have a last question, a very simple one that is more administrative in nature. Let's talk about Quebec, for example, because the whole issue of managing numbers at the linguistic level in Quebec society is extremely important. What is the relationship between the Dominion Bureau of Statistics and the Quebec government? I have heard of certain tensions. Is everything OK now?

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: First, you are using a rather old term to describe Statistics Canada.

Senator Jean-Claude Rivest: Sorry.

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: We used it more than 25 years ago, say about a generation ago.

Voices: Oh, oh!

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: Statistics Canada has very close relationships with the statistics bureaux of each province. We have many committees in virtually all facets of statistics and we meet at least annually.

I personally chair a committee on demographic statistics that is extremely active because the provinces are vitally interested in this are. For the Census we had at least one meeting per year on the evolution of the programs and we have relationships...

Senator Jean-Claude Rivest: Whom do you speak to in the Quebec government?

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: The Bureau de la statistique du Québec.

Senator Jean-Claude Rivest: That's it. It is very interested in linguistic questions as they pertain to the integration of immigrants.

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: No, I would say that interests mainly the Quebec government. There are very few studies on that in the BSQ, the Bureau de la statistique du Québec, because the studies are mostly done in the Conseil de la langue française.

Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP): Without having had to go through Statistics Canada, I know what is happening at home. Francophones are speaking English. That's because of the lack of jobs in our area. They are forced to go and work in Ontario or out West. Then, when they have children or when their children have children, it's over. We have lost them. That's what's happening in our area. It's that simple.

There aren't many that go to work in Quebec. They don't all go to work in Quebec. Every day there are some that leave by plane, by train or by car to go out West. That's what happening to us at home.

Can you measure the effect of immersion programs?

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: Not in the Census per se, but Statistics Canada, through its Education Division, receives data each year from all the provinces on schools and the number of students in immersion programs. This information is available with different characteristics. Similarly, the data on students who go to French schools outside Quebec or French and English schools in Quebec are available. Yes, this information is available for each year.

Mr. Yvon Godin: From the Census?

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: No, not from the Census. These are administrative data. In areas such as these, they are reliable. In the Census, we don't ask questions about that.

The Joint Chairman (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Mr. McTeague.

Mr. Dan McTeague (Pickering—Ajax—Uxbridge, Lib.): Welcome to the committee. I would like to continue along the same lines as my friend Mr. Coderre. Do your statistics take into account the increase in the number of young people who became trilingual in heavily populated areas where there is much economic activity?

• 1620

I would like to reiterate Mr. Godin's comments on people who come to Ontario. Here, in Ontario, our young people leave Toronto to work elsewhere in the world, for example in Japan or in Korea.

Do your statistics take into account such developments among our young people, especially trilingualism, or the ability to speak five or six languages? Do you take that into account in your statistics?

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: Yes, since the 1991 Census. We also did it in 1996. We know the language range in which people can hold a conversation. I don't have any specific data on trilingualism or quadrilingualism but it's the type of information that is extracted from the Census.

Besides French and English, people can put down up to three other languages. We have that information.

Mr. Dan McTeague: Is there any way to tell if people speak a language or are attracted by the fact that it is written that checking off a given language or ethnic group confers ethnic or social advantages? Is there some way of telling if these people, young or old, prefer one social environment over another and that is why they choose to speak a second or third language? For example, someone might be taking Japanese courses because he wants to work for Toyota or Honda in Toronto.

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: We certainly don't have that kind of information in the Census. The number of questions is extremely limited because we have to cover a broad range of topics and the operational costs are very high. However, it is a question that could be asked, if appropriate, in surveys. We could try to learn why people want to learn one language or another.

Mr. Dan McTeague: Are there areas, in Ontario or in Canada, where there has been a decrease in the number of bilingual people, or has there been an increase in all regions of Canada?

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: From memory, and without having checked all the geographic details, I can tell you that there are variable increases but that they occur almost everywhere.

I would have to check, but I have the impression that there is at least one area where it has been stable. I believe it is in Saskatchewan.

[English]

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Mrs. Meredith, do you have an extra question?

Ms. Val Meredith: No, thank you.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Okay, Mr. Plamondon, but you're not getting her time, sir. She did not give it to you.

[Translation]

Mr. Louis Plamondon: When the Commissioner of Official Languages appeared before us, he said that improved school management, which is now more widespread, will show in the next Census that the situation of the French language has improved.

In the text that you distributed, there is one paragraph that caught my eye. You say:

For the group whose mother tongue is French, the 1996 results confirm a diminishing trend that has not changed since 1951. Moreover, this trend should continue, because of a lower proportion of Francophones among young people than among adults.

There you are referring to the age pyramid.

Therefore the Commissioner is telling us things are going to improve and you, you are telling us bluntly that the number is decreasing and will continue to decrease. Who is telling the truth?

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: Oddly enough, I will be forced to explain to you that neither one of us is wrong.

It may seem paradoxical, but there are many factors that contribute to the fact that the proportion of Francophones among the young is lower than among adults.

• 1625

One of the important factors is fertility. There is also the fact that the mothers or the fathers do not always transmit the French language to the children, but that is a factor that, in Canada as a whole, is completely minor. That's for the mother tongue. Therefore, for the mother tongue, yes, that is what we see, and we generally know the main factors behind it.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: You are still speaking about the situation of Francophones outside Quebec.

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: Francophones outside Quebec or in Canada as a whole.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: The Commissioner was alluding to Francophones outside Quebec.

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: That's it. I exclude Quebec, which is in a completely different situation.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: Thank you. Please go on.

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: In scholastic terms, however, we can compare Census data to administrative data from the provinces on attendance in French schools. We have data on the mother tongue from the Census and, on the other hand, the number or proportion of children who attend French schools. When we compare the two, we see that over time, if the proportion of people whose mother tongue is French declines, the proportion of children who attend French school is steady or is declining much more slowly. What has happened?

What has happened is that outside Quebec the proportion of children going to French schools is growing. There are now more children in French schools than there are children whose mother tongue is French in the same age groups. That means that there are a good number of children whose parent or parents have or may have French as their mother tongue but who have not transmitted French as the mother tongue and who have been able to send them to French school because of the eligibility clause.

We cannot measure this precisely because there are two separate sources, but in other circumstances the reason could be, and it is often underlined by the minorities we meet, people whose children have a mother tongue other than English or French, but are attached to the French culture, who come from countries where French schools are widespread.

Senator Jean-Claude Rivest: May I make a comment, Madam Chairman?

The Joint Chairman (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): It's now Senator Robichaud's turn to speak.

Senator Jean-Claude Rivest: It's just a comment.

You know that the example you just cited creates a lot of problems because there are Francophone parents who don't like the fact that Anglophone children go to a French school. The school is French and it's a good thing that there are more students, but in the schoolyard and in the hallways, English has the upper hand.

The Joint Chairman (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Senator Robichaud.

Senator Fernand Robichaud (New Brunswick, Lib.): In Le Quotidien of December 2^nd, on page 6, you said:

Outside Quebec, the number of people speaking French at home has decreased, from 637,000 in 1991 to 619,000 in 1996.

On the next page, talking about language shifts, in the third paragraph you said:

The net gain of the French group has increased more than that of the English group in the last 25 years. In 1996, 39 per cent...

Could you talk to me a little more about that, because I have a bit of a problem understanding it: on the one hand, it's decreasing, and on the other, it's increasing. As a Francophone, do I have good reason to be happy about this?

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: There is the situation in Quebec, on the one hand and the situation... It's always in Quebec.

Senator Fernand Robichaud: It's in Quebec here, but the language shifts... Oh, it's in Quebec only.

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: It's in Quebec.

Senator Fernand Robichaud: Very well.

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: You are interested in the French situation outside Quebec.

Senator Fernand Robichaud: That's it.

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: I think there is a certain degree of consistency between the various data. What we see is an evolution that in most cases is spread out over time. There is a reduction in the proportion of Francophones in most provinces. In New Brunswick, it is quite recent and it remains to be studied precisely. It is probably related, but that remains to be measured, to a rather significant decrease in fertility among Francophones in New Brunswick. Up to now, the proportion of Francophones in New Brunswick was holding at about a third, but it has decreased slightly between 1991 and 1996.

• 1630

Aside from that, the decrease in the proportion and sometimes the number of Francophones outside Quebec is a trend that we have seen for a long time. Demographically, Canada is the fastest growing country in the Western world. It's not surprising since there is strong immigration. It goes without saying that groups who receive few immigrants can hardly see their proportion increase. In some cases, outside Quebec, the number of Francophones is also decreasing, but it's mostly a stable situation that we see in New Brunswick.

I don't know if that answers your question.

Senator Fernand Robichaud: Yes, a little. In answering Mr. Plamondon, you spoke of young people who are attending French classes. Are you saying that in the past there was a decreasing rate that was high compared to now and that now Francophone families are taking greater advantage of those services?

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: We observe that there are more schools and that there are children who attend them. Unfortunately, we do not have, from a single source, data on mother tongue and language of instruction. For the mother tongue, we have the data in the Census, and for the language of instruction we have different administrative sources from the different provinces. By comparing the two, we see that over time, in most provinces, more and more children are attending French schools.

The Joint Chairman (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Senator Beaudoin.

Senator Gérald Beaudoin: The kind of discussion we had at the start piqued my curiosity, but one thing has always struck me. For example, in Canada there are many who are of French, British, Irish or Scottish origin. That's fine.

But how do you compile your statistics, for example if the father is Francophone, the mother is Anglophone and the ancestors are split, and the person has learned both languages at home at the same time? What is that individual? What is his origin?

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: But we have...

Senator Gérald Beaudoin: Personally, I think that he is a Canadian. Here is a Canadian! It's interconnected in his ancestors. I think we could say that he is a Canadian. How do you consider such a person?

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: In the Census, all answers are possible. We keep everyone's answers to all questions. When you consult the data, that is one of the difficulties you run into. There are multiple answers to the questions on mother tongue. For ethnic origin, there is an enormous number. For the mother tongue...

Senator Gérald Beaudoin: Someone can have two ethnic origins.

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: And even many more than that: three, four, five...

Senator Gérald Beaudoin: So, what do they answer?

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: They answer that they are of all those origins, and they are put into our database.

Senator Gérald Beaudoin: He is of both French and Irish ethnic origin?

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: Yes.

Senator Gérald Beaudoin: The same individual?

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: Yes.

Senator Gérald Beaudoin: He has two mother tongues?

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: He could indicate two mother tongues, yes.

Senator Gérald Beaudoin: He answers like that?

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: I can say there are many like that.

Senator Gérald Beaudoin: There are many like that.

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: For ethnic origin, yes, there are many. In the case of the mother tongue, we noticed that we had a few more multiple answers. I spoke about that in my opening remarks. That created a significant problem for us when they became too numerous, especially since those answers were unstable. We had been able to check in the past, through sampling, that most people who declared two mother tongues in one Census rarely did so five years later, and vice-versa. These were unstable answers, therefore difficult to analyze.

• 1635

We tried to find a way, without forcing Canadians to give only one answer, to reduce the number of multiple responses. We found that it was really quite simple. All we needed to do was to first ask for information on the languages they could speak. Afterwards, in general, when we ask people for an answer, whether it is about the language they first learned as a child or about the language they speak most often at home, once they have enumerated all the languages in which they can hold a conversation, the number of multiple responses for the language spoken at home or the mother tongue is very low.

Senator Gérald Beaudoin: I can understand that for the language. It's not the case for me and I can therefore be more at ease since I am not involved. But if a person has had a Francophone father for 10 generations and an Anglophone mother for four generations, what is that person supposed to answer?

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: Both.

Senator Gérald Beaudoin: Both. It will therefore be that way until he dies. It won't change.

The Joint Chairman (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): He is Canadian.

Senator Gérald Beaudoin: According to me, he is a Canadian. What I do not understand is that you say this has been going on for some time. However, his mother is still Irish and his father French.

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: The simplest thing to do would be to read you the question asked. These people are at home since the questionnaire is received in the home. You can see how this is perceived in the home. I think you've got it. You have persons 1, 2 and 3. The question that is asked is "To which ethnic or cultural group(s) did this person's ancestors belong?"

Senator Gérald Beaudoin: There could be three.

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: And we provide four spaces.

Senator Gérald Beaudoin: That's pretty good already. The person indicates that she is of French, Irish and Scottish ethnic origin. That's how the person would normally...

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: Yes. She could also add Canadian or Quebecer also.

Senator Gérald Beaudoin: That's nationality.

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: Yes, but people read the examples and go to the instructions, and we take what they give us, if it makes sense obviously. If they give the name of their dog or of a computer program...

Senator Gérald Beaudoin: I am asking the question because it can happen that people become assimilated and that person can say that his or her ancestors were Francophones but now she speaks English, or vice-versa. How can you follow the line? We are talking about ancestors.

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: It's not an easy question. I can tell you that in the United States, they ask basically the same question.

Some researchers have used the answer "American origin" to this question as an indicator of very profound assimilation, saying that one has even forgotten the ancestral origins before the arrival in America. But that is not an official interpretation. Those are strictly researchers. It's an element that has been used in the United States. How can we best shed light on an understanding of a country?

The Joint Chairman (Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): I must yield to Mr. Godin who has asked to speak. I'm sorry, Mr. Lachapelle.

Mr. Yvon Godin: Earlier you said that it was the fertility rate that had reduced the number of Francophones in New Brunswick.

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: Yes.

Mr. Yvon Godin: I told you it was the opposite, that it was the number of people going to work in Anglophone areas. Is there a way to measure that?

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: Yes. In the Census, we have a number of questions, and some specifically on the place of residence five years previously. That allows us to measure internal and external movements, but essentially it measures internal movements. We even have an additional question on residence one year ago. In a very detailed manner, we ask people to tell us in which municipality they resided five years and one year ago. This kind of information has often been used in the past to track migration by linguistic group in different regions.

• 1640

This data is not yet available for the 1996 Census. It will be available in April.

Mr. Yvon Godin: You really don't know what made the difference. I see here that there has been a decrease in New Brunswick. In 1971, it was 31.4 per cent, in 1991, it was 31.2 per cent and it is now 30.5 per cent. Therefore, in reality, you don't know if it is because there are fewer births or because people moved elsewhere.

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: That's right. We can have indications according to which one factor may be at play. For the other, we will know precisely in April. There are still detailed calculations to be made, but since we already have data by age, that can give us indications on fertility since fertility in the five previous years is found in the number of children below the age of five.

The Joint Chairman (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): It seems we have fewer children.

Mr. Yvon Godin: They are less productive. They don't work as hard. They have no more jobs.

The Joint Chairman (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Senator Pépin.

Senator Lucie Pépin (Shawinigan, Lib.): Mr. Lachapelle and Mr. Petrie, this is my first meeting today and I must admit I have not mastered the issue.

It has been said that young people, given the fact that they go to school, master a second language more easily. In your tenth question you ask what languages other than English and French these people understand. We have persons 1, 2, 3 and 4. Have you been able to collect data to see if a significant proportion of pre- schoolers or people of school age speak a third language? I assume that the first person is the mother or father and that from the third on it is the children. Our immigration is certainly at a high level in certain provinces. For example, in Quebec, we have many allophones who speak their language at home. In such a situation, do the young people speak three languages? When I speak of young people, I refer to those who are in primary school.

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: I don't believe we have looked at that question in detail. The indications that I can give you are that in general, a significant proportion of those people who speak languages other than English or French are those whose mother tongue is neither.

For certain languages, there is an excess number of speakers; there are more second language speakers. One of the languages that comes to mind is Spanish. That is not very surprising since there are many people in Canada who learn Spanish. It is not a mass movement, but it is an issue we consider sufficiently important to require somewhat more detailed study.

Senator Lucie Pépin: I hope so. When I was an M.P., in my riding eight different languages were spoken. We did a pilot project with children in kindergarten to teach French to the mothers. We put together all the children who spoke different languages and the children got along well together even though they did not speak the same language, and we taught French to the mothers at the same time. That happened every day. Then we had a program for children who were starting primary school to finally teach them French. That was seven or eight years ago. We saw that many children of that generation spoke English and French very well and therefore also spoke a third language.

The Joint Chairman (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Mrs. Meredith.

[English]

Ms. Val Meredith: I have a number of questions. One I'd like to ask is a follow-up from the senator's previous question. Will the change in Quebec to language-based schools assist in creating a situation where the shift will be less than it has been in the past? Do you think the change to language-based schools is going to make any difference in the numbers that come out of Quebec?

• 1645

Senator Gérald Beaudoin: In the statistics.

Ms. Val Meredith: In the statistics.

A voice: What do you mean by “change”?

Ms. Val Meredith: I'm sorry; the new change, removing themselves from section 93.

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: Oh, on religion.

Ms. Val Meredith: Well, it used to be based on denominational schools. Now it's going to be based on a language school system. Will that make any difference, do you think, to the statistical evidence?

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: I'd be very surprised if there were a change on that.

Ms. Val Meredith: Okay.

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: It would be very difficult anyway to measure that through the census.

Ms. Val Meredith: The second question I have is this. With the children who don't speak either of the official languages as their mother tongue—Canadian-born children who, prior to going to school, do not speak either French or English—do you pick that up at all in the question? Can you break that down?

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: Yes, exactly. That's something that is of interest to a lot of people. It's essentially those people who speak neither French nor English.

Ms. Val Meredith: I'm speaking specifically of children who have been born in Canada and end up in the school system with no ability in English or French.

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: Yes. Because of all the questions, the census provides us with data on age, sex, place of birth, period of immigration, and all the language questions—whether people know French only, English only, English and French, neither French nor English, or only their mother tongue. That's a lot of characteristics. It's possible to have those statistics compiled.

Ms. Val Meredith: Do you break it down, though, to that degree?

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: Obviously it's not possible to cross-tabulate everything that can be possible, but users can ask. We have services, and a lot people are pleased to answer those questions. Obviously, when there are detailed questions like that and there are no data available, there's a fee. That's cost-recovery.

Ms. Val Meredith: Just to clarify what a Canadian is, perhaps it's a western Canadian experience, but when you have children who are third-generation Canadian from parents who have many backgrounds, and then you have two of these western Canadians marrying, you can have upwards of a dozen ethnic backgrounds for the children who are fourth-generation Canadian. So that is the only thing they can answer with any authenticity, to be Canadian.

[Translation]

The Joint Chairman (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Mr. Plamondon.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: I have a brief question followed by my real question.

If you put "Canadian origin", in the next Census are you going to add a possibility for those who want to answer "Quebecer" since it is older that "Canadian"? The Quebecers have been here longer than the Canadians, and there are also the Acadians who are older, who have been here longer than Canadians. That might give you some interesting statistics.

Do you intend to do that? Have you discussed it?

Mr. Bruce Petrie: As usual, we are consulting the people who use the data, doing research and studying the results of the recent Census.

During the coming years we will identify the options for the next Census. The decisions will not be made until the year 2000.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: Here is my second question.

Some experts, when they speak about the French fact outside Quebec, and you say so yourself, say that assimilation is continuing. On the other hand, as the senator was saying earlier, others, like the Commissioner, say that a better school structure that will yield administrative statistics instead of yours, may compensate for this continuity, since 1951, in assimilation and the disappearance of French.

Some experts say that when a population decreases proportionately, and that's the case for Francophones outside Quebec, it is called a trend towards disappearance. I like to quote you because you are an expert and I would like you to go back to an article you wrote in 1977 in Le Devoir.

• 1650

You wrote this article with some of your colleagues and you said:

Some of our colleagues may not have liked the expression "trend towards disappearance" used by one of the authors of this article; but when a population decreases by 20 to 30 per cent in 30 years, it is disappearing.

It's only a question of time, you say, even if it can take time.

You said that on July 16, 1977 in Le Devoir.

Senator Gérald Beaudoin: Is it still true?

Mr. Louis Plamondon: That's what I want to know. I want to know if it's still true since the assimilation rate of Francophones outside Quebec is 50 per cent according to the latest figures from Statistics Canada. A yes or a no would suffice.

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: I am very glad to have gained a following because it is a word I used at that time. I must say that I probably haven't used it in the last 15 years, but I see that some of my colleagues, including Charles Castonguay, borrowed it from me.

From a strictly demographic point of view, it is something that can be considered. It is often presented that way, not only for minorities but also for national populations. There are many national populations, in Europe especially, whose fertility has become so low that there are more deaths than births each year. That is the case in Italy, in Germany and soon in Spain. We see this kind of phenomenon in national populations, but also in minorities.

The situation of minorities is somewhat different from that of a national population. One can think that it is a territory and that this territory will likely always be populated.

I remember meeting a lot of Francophones from outside Quebec and have read a lot on this subject. One of the elements that they often repeat, and they are not wrong, is that we have been announcing their disappearance for a long time. I have read works written in the 1950s announcing their disappearance, and that was done continually. It is certain that we are now seeing a decrease, but is it 20 or 25 per cent over one generation? I don't believe there are many groups that have declined by 20 to 30 per cent over a period of 20 to 25 years outside Quebec. That is certainly not the case overall, because in general they have been growing over the last 25 years. There may be certain provinces where that is not the case, yes.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: But the age pyramid is against them.

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: Yes, the age pyramid is against them.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: Greatly.

The Joint Chairman (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Mr. Coderre.

Mr. Denis Coderre: I think I will write a letter to the daily Le Devoir. Mr. Plamondon will be able to quote me and say it is easier for the Bloc to disappear than it is for French-Canadians. I think it would be easier to say.

A voice: For Conservatives also.

Mr. Denis Coderre: Conservatives also.

Voices: Oh, oh!

Mr. Denis Coderre: Listen, fight among yourselves. It's your new coalition. Personally, it doesn't affect me.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: And for the Liberals, everything is fine?

Mr. Denis Coderre: For the Liberals, everything is fine.

I would like to make a minor criticism.

Mr. Yvon Godin: You did your job in New Brunswick.

Mr. Denis Coderre: Way to go, Yvon!

I would like to make a constructive criticism about the form.

Senator Jean-Claude Rivest: Finally!

Mr. Denis Coderre: Yes, because it's my turn to speak. You have understood that constructive criticism comes from this side.

I must admit that question 19 offended me a little. You say: "Is this person:" and there you have to check your answer: "White, Chinese, Black". How can we justify saying Chinese but not be able to say African or Haitian? Even if we give examples, without getting into a "politically correct" debate, I think it would be timely to change the kind of question you ask. Even the term "White" creates confusion. Does it mean "from Russia"?

In the Bourassa riding, my riding, there are significant cultural communities, including 8,000 Haitians. When you say "Black", it's offensive.

• 1655

I think we should take that into consideration when we write that kind of thing. And they vote Liberal on top of that. I believe that if we want to be more sensitive to ethnocultural communities we must review the terminology we use in asking questions. We also have Italians and a "sushi bar". There are Chinese, Filipinos, South-East Asians, etc. If we want statistics based on cultural origin, it would be better to split question 19.

I would like you to talk about the Native situation. I just had meetings with the Métis people on the question of Louis Riel. Have you collected statistics on that? Do Native people speak more French? Are they more bilingual? What is the current situation of Native people?

Mr. Bruce Petrie: I can answer the question about categories of answers. They are categories such as those defined in the Employment Equity Act and they are used to identify visible minorities.

Mr. Denis Coderre: I still disagree. For Native people...

Mr. Bruce Petrie: We will study this matter.

Mr. Denis Coderre: I think it is a question of sensitivity. If we want to bring communities closer together, we have to respect their feelings. As for Natives, what is the situation?

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: On the one hand, I don't believe we have studied that question specifically. That will be done in our more detailed work. In the 1991 Census we made a lot of data available on the linguistic characteristics of the Native population because there was a special study on Natives. There are a certain number of publications on that. However, I must admit it is not an area that I am comfortable with because I haven't worked on it very much.

Mr. Denis Coderre: Should I understand from your work that, in the final analysis, the French language is progressing in Canada but that the number of Francophones is decreasing?

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: Yes, that's one way to summarize the situation.

The Joint Chairman (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): I still have one speaker on my list. Senator Fernand Robichaud.

Senator Fernand Robichaud: It was precisely about Natives. You say that you can't tell if Natives are losing their tongue, if they speak their mother tongue less or if they are assimilated into another group. You can't provide us with any data on that or on other trends that we can see in our communities.

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: We could do it, but unfortunately it has not been done. It could be done because we have the data on Native mother tongues. We have information on the language they speak at home and on their knowledge of Native tongues. We know if they have identified themselves as Native or not and we know their ethnic origin. There is a wide range of information on Native populations.

However, it must always be studied with prudence because there are a certain number of reserves that did not agree to participate in the Census. That is therefore an element that must be taken into account at each Census. We do estimations for the total target population but we do not know its characteristics.

The Joint Chairman (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): I would like to ask a question that has not been raised. I would be curious to know if you have been able to measure immigration among Francophones outside Quebec. Are there Francophones who go to the Acadians via immigration? If we produce less children perhaps we need to go and get other people. Is that measurable here? Have you been able to measure it?

• 1700

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: Yes, it is measurable. It is not a phenomenon. In a situation such as that one, to make an in-depth study of the data it is possible to determine which of the new immigrants have French as their mother tongue. It is something that can be measured easily and we have that information.

That information is available and it is already public. It is an element on which I can conclude my remarks and that could be of interest to you or to people who might call you to tell you how to study the language situation. After each Census, we distribute the data in part on paper, but this time we are distributing much of it electronically. There is an enormous amount of statistical information available on a small diskette that contains the equivalent of 10 or 15 printed publications and information like that is available there.

The Joint Chairman (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Thank You. Mr. Plamondon, do you have any other questions? There will be a meeting of the steering committee afterwards.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: It is precisely about that. I believed that there would not be a meeting of the steering committee. Since there will be one, I will wait until then to suggest something.

The Joint Chairman (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): So you don't have any further questions for our witnesses?

Mr. Louis Plamondon: I would have dozens of them but I will let them go.

The Joint Chairman (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Then all that is left is for me to thank you, gentlemen.

Mr. Yvon Godin: You asked your question as though it had not been asked. I thought it was similar to the one I asked when I spoke of young people who went elsewhere to work and emigrated.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: It was on the language of work?

Mr. Yvon Godin: I asked if there was a way of measuring that.

The Joint Chairman (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Are there Haitians who come where we are in Acadia?

Mr. Réjean Lachapelle: I have both, internally and externally.

The Joint Chairman (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): All that is left is for me to thank you, gentlemen. The questions have been interesting. I would ask the members of the steering committee to please stay.

The meeting is adjourned.