LANG Committee Meeting

STANDING JOINT COMMITTEE ON OFFICIAL LANGUAGES

COMITÉ MIXTE PERMANENT DES LANGUES OFFICIELLES

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Tuesday, April 4, 2000

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[Translation]

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco (Laval West, Lib.)): Hello, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to the Standing Joint Committee on Official Languages. I'd like to extend a special welcome to the Minister of Health, Allan Rock.

This meeting is being held in accordance with its mandate under Standing Order 108(4)(b). The committee is resuming the study of the application of chapter 7 of the Official Languages Act.

Mr. Minister, welcome to the committee. I see that you have a colleague with you. Please introduce your colleague and then you may make your presentation.

The Honourable Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Thank you, Madam Chair. Laurette Burch is joining me this afternoon. She is the Director General of the Intergovernmental Affairs Branch at Health Canada.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): Thank you, Mr. Minister. Welcome to our meeting, Ms. Burch. We greatly appreciate, Mr. Minister, the fact that you made it here today. We also know that you must leave at 4:30 this afternoon because you have other commitments. So, let's begin right away. Do you have a formal presentation you wish to make?

Mr. Allan Rock: Yes, I have a summary presentation.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): Very well.

Mr. Allan Rock: Thank you, Madam Joint Chairs of this standing joint committee.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): You are most welcome.

Mr. Allan Rock: I would like to thank you for giving me this opportunity to testify before you in order to present the steps that Health Canada has taken to meet the requirements of Section 41 of the Official Languages Act. This section requires us to participate in the development and growth of official language minority communities in Canada.

What has Health Canada done over the last few years in order to properly define the concerns of official language minority communities and how have we responded to these concerns in the multi-year action plan?

One of the priorities for official language minority communities is access to health services. Health services are a shared responsibility, and the responsibility for organizing and delivering health care services falls to the provinces and territories.

Health Canada must find new and imaginative ways of influencing its provincial and territorial partners and of encouraging them to support official language minority communities. I am pleased to inform you that Health Canada has made some major improvements in how it responds to the needs of official language minority communities by contributing to their development and growth.

[English]

Through the Population Health Fund we have funded a number of projects in support of the English-speaking minority language community in Quebec. Projects are varied and include developing nutrition intervention for the elderly and home-bound populations; ensuring the development of integrated mental health services for Magdalen Islanders; conducting a needs assessment on education and accessibility of health services for the rural deaf; improving access to patient support services for English-speaking people living in remote regions; and strengthening certain foundations in Quebec that through partnerships with different organizations increase promotion, awareness, and information dissemination.

Health Canada contributed $135,000 in partnership with Canadian heritage and justice in support of these activities.

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[Translation]

In addition, the Population Health Fund enabled us to contribute $185,000 to the Alliance des radios communautaires du Canada to broadcast information on health care services for children and adolescents, to francophones and Acadians.

Also, we have implemented a multi-year action plan which will allow us to improve communication between the department and official language minority communities.

On the one hand, officials from Health Canada have a better understanding of the needs of official language minority communities, and on the other hand, members of the community have a better understanding of what the department can do for them. We are in the process of reviewing the plan and we will be consulting with official language minority communities over the course of this process.

In May of 1999, Health Canada created the Official Language Minority Communities Coordination Bureau, which brings together a network of coordinators made up of representatives from the national level, the regions and the branches, to increase the department's support in implementing section 41 of the Official Languages Act. These coordinators are the first point of contact for members of official language minority communities.

Health Canada also appointed an advocate for questions involving official languages, Ms. Marie Fortier, associate deputy minister, who is not here today because she is on holiday. She shows leadership by ensuring that her executive management committee colleagues consider the effect their programs and policies have on official language minority communities.

Thanks to the accomplishments that I've mentioned, Health Canada is making the necessary progress to fully discharge its responsibilities under Section 41 of the Official Languages Act.

There has been progress and we recognize that we must do more still more. We would like to work closely with other departments and especially with representatives of official language minority communities to ensure that we are truly able to respond to their needs in a consistent manner.

It is in this spirit that I have the pleasure of announcing the creation of an official languages minority communities advisory committee. Its members are representatives of minority francophone communities, Health Canada and Canadian Heritage as well as representatives from the provinces. We are looking into the idea of establishing a similar committee for Quebec's anglophone minorities.

The main duties of this committee will be, first of all, to consult with the Minister of Health on ways to contribute to the development and growth of Canada's linguistic minority communities; secondly, to provide its perspective on initiatives that are being developed in order to ensure that it has the best possible impact on official language minority communities in Canada; thirdly, to provide a forum to help in updating the multi-year action plan in order to assist the department in meeting its obligations under Section 41 of the Official Languages Act.

This committee will allow us to hear comments from the official language minority communities on a continual basis and will help us to solidify our relationship in a positive manner.

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In closing, I would like to confirm Health Canada's commitment to respect its responsibilities as outlined in Section 41 of the Act. As Minister, I believe that the intention is of the utmost importance and that my department's actions must reflect our commitment. I believe that if we work together, we can make a positive difference in the development and vitality of official language minority communities.

That concludes my comments. I will gladly answer your questions now.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): Thank you, Minister, for your brief presentation. I have here the list of speakers. First of all, it will be Mr. Hill, then Mr. Plamondon, then Senator Losier- Cool and Mr. Godin.

Mr. Hill, you have the floor.

[English]

Mr. Grant Hill (Macleod, Canadian Alliance): Thanks, Madam President, and thanks to the minister for being here.

Most Canadians accept that both languages should be provided where numbers warrant, in other words where there is a demand. In the regulations, however, there is one exclusion or one exception to that, and that is by the nature of the office. Specifically, health, safety, and security of the public are exceptions. There is no demand required there. In fact federal offices providing emergency services must provide them in both languages.

This is where Health Canada has a significant service component with the natives in the north. How does a clinic such as Sioux Lookout in the north deal with the two official languages?

Mr. Allan Rock: In all of the Santé Canada offices throughout the country, we make an effort in terms of signs, written material, and services provided by those who greet the public to make it clear that we can respond to needs in both official languages.

I visited the facilities in the Sioux Lookout zone beyond Sioux Lookout itself and I can tell the committee that the practice is no different there. The working environment for our employees and the level of service offered to members of the public throughout the country reflects our commitment through aspects of signage, whether it's on our vehicles or in our offices. With material that is provided to impart information about health or health practices and with the actual furnishing of services or giving of oral information, we make every effort, in keeping with the reality of the circumstances, to respond to needs in both official languages.

Mr. Grant Hill: Let me tell the minister what the natives in this area tell me. They say they don't require services in both official languages. In fact they require them predominantly in their native tongue. English, of course, is the second most common language in an area like this. I would point out that the requirement that the official languages be used in a location like that makes little sense. In other words, signage in French and English in the north makes little sense. The natives tell me that directly and would like to have services provided to them in their native language as well as in English.

Mr. Allan Rock: Is the member looking for a comment?

[Translation]

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): Please go ahead.

[English]

Mr. Allan Rock: We try to provide services to people who seek the assistance of Health Canada in whatever way is respectful of them and their rights and that also reflects our statutory, political, and moral obligations.

[Translation]

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): Mr. Hill, if you wish.

[English]

Mr. Grant Hill: The large document we were presented to let us know how Health Canada was doing has on page 6, point 7: “Principal Needs Identified at National, Provincial and Territorial Levels”.

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The last paragraph says:

The mandate of Health Canada gives the Department a limited opportunity to respond to the specific expectations of the official language minority communities as it is not in a position to deliver direct health services...

It goes on to say:

However, Health Canada is willing to consider areas where some influence can be exercised, including at the political level.

That's confusing to me. Since this is outside the federal jurisdiction, what possible force or coercion could be applied to the provinces in a level of their jurisdiction?

Mr. Allan Rock: I think the word was “influence”, not “coercion”, and I think the word was chosen properly, because I don't think there's room for coercion in this country at all and I wouldn't choose to use that word.

We chose to use the word “influence”. That's a much more benign, constructive, and positive force. Influence, in my mind, means working collaboratively with provincial partners.

We have a shared responsibility for providing health services in Canada. The provincial governments actually deliver the services. The Government of Canada has many important responsibilities in the health domain, and one of our responsibilities is to ensure that the Official Languages Act is respected.

We do that through our own conduct and through our own policies, but we also try to influence our provincial partners in a collegial and collaborative sense to ensure that they respond respectfully and appropriately where language might be a barrier to accessibility and where people might receive services more effectively in both official languages.

So influence is very much what we do; coercion, we would never consider.

Mr. Grant Hill: Moral suasion.

Mr. Allan Rock: Exactement.

Mr. Grant Hill: That in fact is a better word than what I chose.

The size of the document here makes it very difficult for somebody like me to go through it and calculate the overall cost to Health Canada of the services provided for both languages, and the benefits. In other words, I would look at the time, say, in 1993 when your government took power and ask, what has the improvement been in the percentage component? That's a cost-benefit analysis, if you will. Can you give me some idea of that?

Mr. Allan Rock: I don't know about that. I'll certainly defer to Madame Burch when it comes to the numbers, but I don't know that we're going to find an arithmetical connection between the amount expended and the degree of service that's provided.

I think what's important is that the Government of Canada respect its obligations under the Official Languages Act because we believe in the principle. We believe in the fact that we have two official languages, that we must provide services and make them available in two official languages, that those who work in my department, as in others, must work in an environment that reflects that belief, and that anybody who seeks service from my department must find that service accessible in both languages as befits their needs.

I'm sure we have the numbers somewhere to provide you with. Perhaps Madame Burch can do that.

Ms. Laurette Burch (Director General, Intergovernmental Affairs, Department of Health): I would like to emphasize that in many ways Health Canada, like other government departments, has not created a whole group of people whose job it is to be engaged in this as their only focus of endeavour. Consequently, when we speak of a network of coordinators, these are all people who have an interest and a responsibility around the official languages file but who are engaged in a number of other activities. So clearly we're not able to attribute their entire salary to the official languages file.

In the newly created bureau in Ottawa, we have three staff, and I would estimate their salary budget would range up to about $130,000, and in this fiscal year I would expect that we have expended in the area of $20,000 to $30,000 in operating funds. If you want more precise information on that, we could provide it.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): Mr. Hill, I'll stop you right there. We're over the time. You'll certainly get a chance to come back a second time.

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[Translation]

Mr. Plamondon.

Mr. Louis Plamondon (Bas-Richelieu—Nicolet—Bécancour, BQ): Madam Chair, first of all allow me to congratulate you. I have been a member for 16 years and this is the first time that I have attended a committee meeting that started on time, that is at 3:30 p.m. precisely. This is a habit that you should be instilling into all the other committees.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): I must say how much I appreciate your comment, all the more so because it is a compliment and I am flattered.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: Nonetheless, I am somewhat disappointed that the Minister only has one hour to spend with us because of other obligations. I think he should have given us at least one hour and a half in order to take the questions from the members and senators of all the different parties.

Mr. Minister, I still have the same concerns. It's my impression that nobody at the federal government—and I'm not necessarily targeting the current government because the government that preceded you was the same—realizes that there are two official minorities and that one of them is in greater danger than the other and has greater needs. I am referring to the French minority. For example, in Ms. Copps' riding, the rate of assimilation for francophones is 80%, whereas the rate of assimilation for minority anglophones is 0% in Quebec. So there is a greater danger that minority francophones will disappear than minority anglophones in Quebec.

In Quebec, the anglophone minority and its leaders often say that their rights are protected by law with respect to social services, hospitals, schools and the provision of bilingual services from government departments. Often the example is given of the agreement that was reached when Employment Canada became Employment Quebec. When these powers were devolved, the anglophone minority said they were entirely satisfied with the agreement and with the protection of their rights.

I don't hear the other minority in other provinces saying the same thing. I was surprised during your introduction, because you were almost bragging and giving as an example the fact that you contributed a certain amount of money towards the provision of health and social services in Quebec. You mentioned that several hundreds of thousands of dollars have been contributed to retain the services of regional coordinators; however these costs were supposed to be completely covered by the government of Quebec, to the tune of $718,000. You decided to increase the budget allowance by 50%.

I don't want people thinking that I am against the anglophone minority receiving anything. I have always said that we, in Quebec, are proud of the fact that we have a minority that is very well treated and that this should be an example for other countries around the world. We agree that this minority must keep their rights and continue to develop.

However, when I compare this to the efforts that the federal government has made in the case of the Montfort hospital, for example, their actions to protect health and social services for francophones are always far too timid. If you want to protect a language, you need to take action beyond the schools. You also need to make provision for delivery of social services and community services in this language.

I see you contributing considerable sums of money to Canadian Heritage, as well as to the government of Quebec in the form of additional funds for the health and social services that they must now provide under the law and that, incidentally, they are providing very well. Why do you not instead adopt a philosophy that would emphasize solving the problems that the francophone minority are experiencing and dedicate your efforts at this level? Seeing as the anglophone minority will receive the same guarantees and services that they have received up until now, why would you contribute yet more money to them when there are flagrant cases affecting the francophone minority which are being completely neglected?

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): Is the question clear, Mr. Minister?

Mr. Louis Plamondon: I'm at the point where I don't know how to ask it, since I ask it every time to all the ministers.

Mr. Allan Rock: It's more of a speech than a question than you ask. Under section 41 of the Act, as the Minister of Health, I must ensure that my department offers programs and services to minority communities of both official languages.

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I recognize that a certain amount of money has been invested to provide more services to some anglophones in Quebec. I would also underline the fact that we have made efforts in other provinces to support francophone minority communities outside of Quebec.

You referred to the Minister of Canadian Heritage. I know that Ms. Coops came and testified before your committee to clarify the position of her department, which manages a wide variety of programs, undertakes many different projects and invests considerable sums to provide services and programs to francophone communities living outside of Quebec in their official language.

In response to your question, I would say that we will continue to respect our obligations, not only to minority anglophone communities in Quebec, but also to minority francophone communities elsewhere in the country.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: But do you acknowledge that...

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): Mr. Plamondon, if you wish to ask a question, I would ask you to be brief this time, or keep it for the second round.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: Thank you. Do you acknowledge, however, that Quebec protects the rights of anglophones in the areas of health and social services better than the other provinces do with respect to their francophone minorities? You should be able to acknowledge that this is the case.

Mr. Allan Rock: I am appearing before this committee today to answer questions about the responsibilities of the Department of Health. I am not in any position to comment on the service delivery provided by the government of Quebec and by the other provincial governments.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: Thank you.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): Please ask a final question, Mr. Plamondon.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: If you are unable to say that such and such a service is provided by one province but that there is no similar service provided by another, how can you ascertain whether or not you are spending this money appropriately? It seems to me that you should be aware of the fact that the legislation makes it mandatory for certain provinces, like Quebec, to provide certain health services and social services whereas other provinces do not have the same constraints. In my opinion, you should be focussing on the minority with the greatest need rather than on the minority with lesser needs.

Mr. Allan Rock: I am sure that all provincial governments are doing their best to provide services in the two official languages.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: What about Montfort Hospital?

Mr. Allan Rock: As I've just indicated, the government of Canada can, hopefully, encourage and influence in a positive way the actions and policies of the provincial governments, including policy on Montfort.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): We will certainly have a second round, Mr. Plamondon.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: Thank you.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): Senator Losier-Cool.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool (Tracadie, Lib)): Welcome, Mr. Minister.

First of all, you are to be commended for your commitment to the Official Languages Act and the protection of the two minorities. The fact that you have learned French is proof of this commitment. The Department of Health is a big department dealing with many stakeholders. It is a department whose influence is felt by many people.

I hope that you will repeat this commitment and reiterate your convictions to all of your officials working in this large organization under your responsibility, namely, the Department of Health. I would go even farther and ask you to reiterate this pledge to all of the departments and to all of your colleagues in Cabinet.

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Having said that, I would now like to turn to some perhaps more simple things. I am one of those who believe that the children in our country, regardless of where they may live, are entitled to the same rights and the same basic opportunities.

I have a very specific area in mind, namely, the health and study centres that the FCFA representatives talked to us about last year. In New Brunswick and in several other provinces, particularly the Western provinces, francophones are responsible for managing their own schools. Nevertheless, we sometimes experience difficulties because we cannot establish integrated services, in French, in the schools. Although the children are attending French school, they have to use the services of speech pathologists, psychologists and nurses from the English schools. Since their communities are too small, they are told that not all of these services can be provided in each school.

I would like to propose a solution that will not cost you very much. Perhaps this is an issue that comes under Ms. Burch's jurisdiction. Could we undertake a pilot project to set up a mobile integrated service unit that could travel from one community to the next to provide these services to francophone students? This is a recommendation that I often hear from minority groups. This is my first concern.

I would also like to know whether or not the Department of Health has agreed to the program with respect to the captain of the Aigles Bleus of the University of Moncton, a health program for francophone teens. I had understood that the Department of Health had been receptive to this project and that it was to give a final answer in early April. I realize that it is still early April.

Mr. Allan Rock: To answer your last question, I believe that this file is still under review, and I will ask for clarification from Deputy Minister Dodge tomorrow so that I can keep you informed.

As for your preliminary comments, Marie Fortier, the Assistant Deputy Minister in my department, is a real champion who ardently defends the legislation and actively participates in enforcing section 41 in the health care field. When she comes back, I will tell her about your comments and encourage her to share this conviction with the employees in our department and in others as well.

I would also like to point out that the establishment of this advisory committee that I announced today is a step in the right direction. I believe that this committee will provide me with an opportunity to meet with the representatives of francophone minority communities on a regular basis and to better understand the concerns of the people living in these communities, at the grassroots level. I will have to respond directly to these people when they raise important issues. I think that we now have a fairly valid and significant mechanism to do this.

As regards your question about pilot projects for delivering integrated services in the schools, if I may, before I turn the floor over to Ms. Burch, I would like to state that my department as well as the one under the leadership of my colleague, Jane Stewart, are in the process of establishing, in cooperation with the provinces, a Canada-wide program for children. We have begun consultations with the general public as regards the content of this program and last summer, we published a consultation document. Since we were concerned about our responsibilities under section 41 of the Act, we also asked the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadiennes du Canada to lead a discussion group focussing specifically on access to services in French in the health care field. The consultation was quite valid and significant, and we shared their recommendations with the provinces, who will assist us in preparing our action plan.

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Ms. Burch may have some details with respect to the training of young people.

Ms. Laurette Burch: I would simply like to add that we have already discussed the issue of requirements. I have also had some discussions with Ms. Alcock, of the University of Ottawa, where funds are provided to support the training of specialists in nine health-related fields. In fact, while I was discussing this issue with her, I informed her of the advisory committee and she asked me to keep her informed because they too would like to set up such a committee. This would help in terms of the availability of people and may also increase the training of specialists who could provide services in French. I think that this will be an important contact that will provide us with additional support as we deal with these concerns.

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): Thank you, and thank you for this special board. Francophones in minority situations are often told that education and health come under provincial jurisdiction. In some provinces, things work well, but in others, they have to, not fight, but push really hard and sometimes, they're out of breath. We have to acknowledge that in small communities, it is often the volunteers who get involved. They would like to see more leadership from the federal government so that they can negotiate with the provincial authorities in order to obtain certain basic services, such as the ones I have mentioned. I believe that my message has been heard. Thank you very much.

Mr. Allan Rock: That is perhaps the influence to which Mr. Hill referred.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): Mr. Godin, you have the floor.

Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP): Good afternoon, Mr. Minister. With regard to forming advisory committees on official languages, such committees can do a great deal to make the Minister aware of the needs of francophone minority communities, but is Health Canada willing to provide resources to improve the situation?

Mr. Allan Rock: We have resources for this purpose and I am doing my best. The first step is to set up the committee and then ensure that the committee itself has the necessary resources to fulfil its obligations, namely, a secretariat within the department, and so on. Then, the committee members will have to be consulted in order to determine the real needs. That is the first step. I am very pleased that the committee has now been formed. I will have the opportunity to meet with it soon.

Mr. Yvon Godin: Okay. In his report on the implementation of Part VII of the Official Languages Act, Professor Donald Savoie describes Health Canada's action plan as follows:

The plan is modest and its stated objectives and initiatives are thin on the ground.

In his report, however, Mr. Savoie also indicates that francophone leaders have let it be understood that the next major social challenge that francophone communities will have to face, after education, will be in the health sector.

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Is Health Canada prepared to support the communities and take up this challenge?

Mr. Allan Rock: Yes, and I think that setting up this committee, as I said, is a first step in the right direction. It was because of the comments made by Mr. Savoie, among others, that we sought out people to sit on this committee.

Mr. Yvon Godin: I have another question. Professor Savoie states that:

[...] the health care sector is very complex and it will be important to consult widely to determine in fairly precise terms what can be done and by employing what model.

How does the Minister intend to determine, in fairly precise terms, what can be done by the federal government, in consultation with the communities?

Mr. Allan Rock: There are two things. In the first place, I asked Ms. Fortier to make recommendations to me. She is presently preparing recommendations in that regard for me. In the second place, when I meet with the committee members for the first time, I will ask them to give me their recommendations on what measures Health Canada should take to improve the situation.

Ms. Burch.

Ms. Laurette Burch: I would also like to point out that Mr. Savoie is working very closely with us, and that he wishes to support our efforts with the advisory committee. Furthermore, he is doing a study for the deputy ministers' committee on official languages. His support is very heartening for us. He too seems to be encouraged by our progress.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): If you don't mind, you have a few minutes left.

Mr. Yvon Godin: Health Canada is one of the federal departments responsible for drawing up a national action plan for children. The initial documents that were made public last year contain no reference whatsoever to the fact that there are two linguistic communities in the country. The preparation of a national children's strategy should be central to the implementation of Part VII of the Official Languages Act.

Young people are essential to the renewal and development of francophone communities. The education struggles of the past decades show how much importance is placed by the leaders of these communities on their youth. What does Health Canada intend to do to ensure that francophone minority communities can participate in the formulation and implementation of the national action plan for children?

Mr. Allan Rock: As I said in response to the question asked by the Senator, last summer we published a consultation document with the provinces, to which you alluded. We were aware of the needs of the francophone minority communities in this area. We asked the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada to lead a discussion group on the vision of the children's agenda, in which eight national francophone organizations are participating.

The Federal-Provincial-Territorial Council on Social Policy Renewal is currently analysing the comments gathered at the consultations and will present a report in the near future.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): Thank you. There will be a second round and we will come back to you.

Mr. Yvon Godin: Yes.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): Senator Maheu.

Senator Shirley Maheu (Rougemont, Lib.): Thank you, Madam Chair.

[English]

Welcome, Mr. Minister.

I haven't been around the official languages committee for a few years, and more specifically since I came to the Senate. At one time I co-presided this committee, and I'm going back some in history to February 1996, when the language commissioner noted that Health Canada had very little data on the relative health of minority communities and on the special needs of the different regions.

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For example, in B.C., 25% of the $10 million federal-provincial programs fund for 1994 to 1996 was assigned to native children. Francophone parents did not fit the program criteria. I think writing up criteria was a really big mistake if we're looking at stopping funding because they did not meet the criteria.

Poor access to day care and kindergarten in French also had an impact on the vitality of the minority community in B.C. We have met that community several times with Canada-France groups travelling across the country. They are dynamic, but they need help, and I think it's long overdue.

In 1998 again, the commissioner noted that Health Canada had not demonstrated that the needs of minority communities were being addressed in an effective manner.

My other preoccupation, of course, is the children, where we can instil the learning of a second language, because their skills are very astute.

The other priority I have is seniors—because I'm getting there myself, for one thing—home care development, a new division created in April 1998. There's nothing anywhere that tells us what happened.

You mentioned a little earlier that some of these things are a provincial responsibility, but I think Health Canada also has a responsibility. We have a law that insists that all departments provide services to both minority-language groups. We've been consulting and consulting. Isn't now the time to see action and to put in a few items that have been accomplished with the two official languages?

[Translation]

Mr. Allan Rock: I think that there are some accomplishments that can be cited, but I also think that, in response to your question, it is very important to draw a distinction between services offered by the provinces and services offered by Health Canada. If you have examples of services for which Health Canada is responsible that are not offered in both languages to francophone minority communities, please provide me with details. If you are referring to social or health care services offered in English only to francophone communities by the provinces, for example by British Columbia, that is something different and I have a quite different role to play in that. In the first case, I am responsible for my department and I will certainly make sure that services and programs are accessible in both languages. That is my responsibility and I am very happy, I might even say enthusiastic, about doing it. Provide me with details if you have examples of Health Canada services or programs that do not meet these obligations. However, if you have problems with the provinces, as Mr. Hill said, it is a matter of influence, encouragement and, from time to time, money; you are right.

I have met personally with the francophone community in British Columbia. I know that they have a lot of trouble gaining access to services in French in the health sector. I have the opportunity to meet with my counterparts every year at our annual meeting of health ministers and, occasionally, social services ministers, since ministers sometimes hold the two positions. In the past, I have told them of my concerns in this area and I intend to tell them again, in order to influence their course of action. Moreover, we occasionally contribute money to help them in their efforts.

I hope that you do not have any examples of services provided by us that are not accessible or not offered in both languages, because I am somewhat proud of the progress that we have made within my department in this area.

[English]

Senator Shirley Maheu: Could you have someone report to this committee on home care development, where you are, what the federal Health Canada branch has done in that area? I think that's where our seniors are affected most.

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[Translation]

Mr. Allan Rock: I can do that myself right now. Two years ago, I asked my officials to set up a group to develop the necessary policies, with a view to intensifying discussions with the provinces on an overall, integrated approach to home care and community care, because these are clearly health care priorities. Some hospitals have been closed, and the role of hospitals in delivering services has been reduced. The burden of providing care is increasingly being transferred to families, especially in the case of the elderly, as you will find out for yourselves. This is currently one of the failures of our health care system.

It is true that the provinces have all invested money in this area. Home and community care programs exist in all the provinces. They may assume very different forms, but that is a good thing. One of the real advantages of a federation is precisely to have a laboratory where different approaches can be tested. But these efforts are not complete; they are inadequate to meet the demand, to meet the needs. I therefore asked my officials to draw up proposals for a more integrated approach, with more federal money and federal leadership, to ensure that home and community care are an integral part of our health insurance system in Canada. They are working on this now and we are preparing proposals to submit to the provinces, once they are ready to participate in such a discussion with us. For the time being, the only concern is money.

I am going to ask Marie Fortier, who set up this group herself, whether we included the perspective of francophone minority communities in organizing and preparing our proposals, and I will give you an answer after having discussed this with her.

Senator Shirley Maheu: Thank you.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): I was very pleased to hear Senator Maheu's question. I myself intended to ask a very similar question, even though it is a matter that seems a priori to affect the elderly.

In fact, we talk about young people a great deal. It's important. We have to talk about young people. We have to talk about children. We have to talk about newborns, even those in official language minorities. However, I find that we do not say much about the senior citizens who belong to official language minorities. I am therefore very pleased to hear that, in your plans, you are taking into account this large segment of the population, a segment which moreover is growing, because I think we have a tendency to forget that these people exist. Thank you.

I will now move on to the second round, but I warn you that I will be much stricter this time, because the Minister will have to leave very soon. We will therefore go to Mr. Hill first, then Mr. Plamondon and Mr. Bélanger.

A voice: He has not yet spoken.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): It doesn't matter, because we go by party, in any event.

Mr. Hill, you have the floor.

[English]

Mr. Grant Hill: Coming back to the issue of measuring the progress of Health Canada, I went back and reviewed some of the testimony before I was here in Parliament, and I sat on this committee at one point in time and listened to the progress, and I didn't ever have an indication of how the progress is measured. The minister in both cases said “We're doing a wonderful job” and wasn't specific as to how to measure that. I would love to have a measure.

When you say you're doing a good job, you're proud. You said yourself that you're a bit proud of how you're doing. What do you use as your measurement stick for that?

Mr. Allan Rock: I guess what I'm referring to is the level of commitment I see at the department. I see the various efforts we're funding to try to develop a better idea of how services are made available in both languages throughout the country. I agree measurement is part of accountability for any government, but when it comes to actually measuring, I'm not exactly sure how we can do that.

• 1625

There's one way that might be helpful, and it occurred to me as I listened to Senator Maheu's question earlier. Last Friday Statistics Canada published a document on the state of health of Canadians, and last September we had the second report on the health of Canadians published by the federal-provincial-territorial ministers of health. I think in both of those reports we looked at health outcomes or health statistics, broken down by characteristics of the population, geographical location, and linguistic preference. We may be able to compare reports now to those several years ago, in terms of access. I'll find out. We'll have a look at that and see.

Similarly, the Canadian Institute for Health Information is publishing a report on the state of the health care system later this month. I'll find out whether they intend to differentiate health outcomes, based upon geography and linguistic characteristics. I don't know about that, but I'll find out.

Beyond that, I don't really have a response to your question about how the measurement is done in this particular area of responsibility, but perhaps Madame Burch has some ideas.

Ms. Laurette Burch: Yes. In the preparation of our multi-year action plan, recognizing, as you say, that in many instances we would like something more tangible than simply feel-good statements, we have set up our plan to have performance indicators. So when we update it this year, we will be able to have a measure of whether we met what our plan was telling us we were going to do. In so doing, we will have a measurement of our performance compared to the plan. That's a response that will allow us, in a way, to see how far we've gone, where we can do more, etc.

There are also indirect measures we record that aren't necessarily related to part VII. By tracking complaints, etc., we have a sense of whether we're moving forward or not.

Mr. Grant Hill: That would be very helpful, because the number of complaints is in fact a measure.

Ms. Laurette Burch: Yes.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): I'm sorry, I will have to cut you off here. We will go to Mr. Plamondon.

[Translation]

Mr. Louis Plamondon: Mr. Minister, I was surprised by the answer that you gave to the Honourable Senator Maheu. You said that, as far as Health Canada is concerned, services are bilingual, but that if a service falls within provincial jurisdiction—and you mentioned British Columbia—that is not your responsibility.

Mr. Allan Rock: It depends on what we are talking about.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: You spoke of health services in your answer to Ms. Maheu's question. You said that, whenever it is your responsibility at Health Canada, you ensure that everything is bilingual; but when it is not within your jurisdiction, it is difficult for you to take action. That is more or less what you said, on the whole.

Mr. Allan Rock: It is difficult for me to solve the problem, but I can take action.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: You can take action. I find that you are very quick to take action in Quebec on behalf of the anglophone minority, considering the amount of money that you contributed, that you referred to a few minutes ago, but very slow to take action in British Columbia and elsewhere, in order to help the francophone minority. That is just an observation, but my question is more general.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): I would ask that you be specific.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: Fine. I have two quick questions. For example, would it not have been better if you had not cut health services, as you did with the provinces, rather than attempt to create programs with national standards that are in conflict with provincial jurisdiction over health care? In my view, there is something quite wrong with your perception of respecting fields of provincial jurisdiction...

Mr. Allan Rock: To which programs are you referring?

Mr. Louis Plamondon: You spoke of national standards for home care programs.

Mr. Allan Rock: I did not refer to national standards.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: You used the word "national" twice during your intervention.

Mr. Allan Rock: I referred to an effort across Canada to ensure that all Canadians had access to certain services.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: And one might add the phrase: "While respecting provincial jurisdictions".

Mr. Allan Rock: Well, you have added something.

Mr. Louis Plamondon: Are you prepared to accept it?

• 1630

Mr. Allan Rock: Mr. Plamondon, in the first place, you are preoccupied by the example of the anglophone community in Quebec that I cited. It was only an example. I can give examples from elsewhere in Canada, where we stepped in to help francophone minority communities outside Quebec. Our efforts are continuing throughout Canada.

In answer to your question, I am not proposing measures or programs that would amount to interference in fields of provincial jurisdiction, not at all. I had the opportunity last week to discuss this with my counterparts, and it is clear from what I said in Markham that I have no intention of interfering in the fields of provincial jurisdiction.

The fact is that there is one shortcoming in health-care services throughout Canada, namely, home and community health care. This is recognized by all the independent experts. What I told my counterparts is that the provinces are already in the process of changing the situation by adding some services in this area, and I would like to support them in order to ensure that more or less equivalent services are available throughout Canada. Naturally, each province will have to determine how it will provide these services. That is a field of provincial jurisdiction, but the federal government has a role to play, and that role is to support its provincial partners.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): Thank you.

I will have to stop you there, Mr. Plamondon. I am sorry. If we have time remaining, perhaps we could return to this on a third round.

Mr. Bélanger.

Mr. Mauril Bélanger (Ottawa—Vanier, Lib.): Madam Chair, I have what might be called a combined question and statement.

I will begin, Mr. Minister, by congratulating you. I think that the initiative of creating a national advisory committee with the francophone community outside Quebec is a promising development and will help the community make this change in direction, fall into line on health and have direct access to the department and the Minister. I think that this will be very useful and I thank you on behalf of my constituency and on behalf of French Canadians across the country, who supported the creation of this committee.

I am also pleased to learn, from the remarks made by Ms. Burch, that the National Medical Training Hospital will be following this very closely and will try to benefit from the creation of this committee. This will facilitate the setting-up of this national training centre which will also be of key importance for francophones throughout the country.

I would also like to address the issue of costs and advantages, that certain parties have once again raised, but my speech would be much too long. I have one comment, which is not intended to be offensive, for Mr. Hill. I would perhaps invite you to examine the issue from a different angle: the duty of the Government of Canada is not necessarily to offer services to minority communities, but to offer services to both linguistic communities throughout the country.

There are seven million French Canadians and 23 million English Canadians, or Canadians who speak English, if you like, and the fact that only 2% of English Canadians live in Hawkesbury, for example, does not mean we will stop offering them services in English.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): Mr. Bélanger, I must interrupt you. I suggest that you have a private conversation with Mr. Hill, perhaps after the meeting.

Mr. Mauril Bélanger: I will ask my question, Mr. Minister.

You are currently discussing with the provinces the possibility of expanding certain programs or creating new ones, like a home-care program. In your discussions with the provinces and in the resulting arrangements for transfers of funds, would you be prepared to consider including a condition regarding official languages throughout Canada, when new programs are being created or when funding for existing programs is being increased?

Mr. Allan Rock: As a policy?

Mr. Mauril Bélanger: As a policy, as a criterion for the transfer of funds.

• 1635

Mr. Allan Rock: I think my responsibility is to raise the issue and to ensure that the money be spent according to my mandate under Section 41 of the Act. To be honest, I never thought of including the criteria per se, but I believe that you are right to say that we must always keep that in mind when discussing the possibility of new health-related programs, policies or monies with the provinces. Rest assured that I will raise the issue with my peers in the course of the discussions I hope we will have in the coming months.

I will think about making it a criterion, although I never insisted on it in the past. I am willing to discuss the matter with you, but we basically have to make sure that the provinces spend the new monies making services accessible to minority language groups.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): Mr. Godin, please be brief.

Mr. Yvon Godin: I would like to continue with my line of questioning. I have another question regarding the call for tenders Health Canada put out at the beginning of December for the creation of five centres of excellence for child wellness. Couldn't the main mission of one of these centres be to compensate for the lack of information we have on francophone children living in a minority situation?

It may perhaps be better if I ask all my questions at once, because I have three good ones to which I would like some answers.

Couldn't one of these centres contribute to the innovation and development of services adapted to the specific needs of francophone children living in a minority situation, and, indeed, have specific measures been taken in that regard? If not, would the Minister consider taking such action?

Mr. Allan Rock: It's a good idea and I will look into how these centres could help us better understand the situation of children living in minority language communities. It's a good idea. However, I don't think that one of those five centres should be dedicated to studying children living in minority communities, but I think you have a point. It would be a good idea to include that approach in our work.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): Thank you, Mr. Godin. Senator Maheu, do you have a final question?

[English]

Senator Shirley Maheu: Minister, I'm very glad to hear you say how we can do it, and not if we can do it. I think you can do it if you want to.

[Translation]

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): Thank you, Madam Senator. I have two questions for you, Mr. Minister.

The first deals with the creation of the advisory committee. It often happens that when an advisory committee is struck, consultations take place, but the response of the Minister or of the department is lukewarm. In other words, the advisory committee may be consulted but not listened to. There's a difference. First, to whom is this recently created advisory committee accountable? Is it directly accountable to the Minister or to an official? Second, is the government, or the Minister, obliged to respond to the committee's recommendations? Third, regarding the membership of the committee, have you taken into account various factors, such as young people, elderly people who live in different regions, various groups within the overall francophone community and anglophones living in minority situations? That's my first question.

Mr. Allan Rock: Was that the first question?

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): And to think I was in a hurry to have you chair the committee... Please go on, Ms. Folco.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): Perhaps you can answer my second question at a later time in writing, Mr. Minister.

I was just looking at the multi-year action plan of May 1999. Page 25 of the English version refers to the Office of Rural Health. It says: "Impact on official language minority communities—to be defined"; "Follow-up activity—to be determined"; "Performance indicator—to be determined".

• 1640

Given the fact that many members of minority francophone communities live in rural areas, has there been a follow-up since May 1999, when the document was published? If so, rather than giving me a verbal answer this afternoon, and given the fact that you have very little time right now, perhaps you could send committee members a written answer. For now, a yes or no will do.

Mr. Allan Rock: I believe the answer is yes, but I will send you a written answer shortly. I was supposed to be at a Cabinet committee 10 minutes ago, but...

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): [Editor's note: Inaudible]... as well, if you wish. Will you be able to provide us with a written answer?

Mr. Allan Rock: Yes, but I can also give you an answer right now because this is an extremely important subject for me. First, I am convinced that the people we have asked to sit on this committee represent a wide variety of points of view which are relevant to the work of the committee. I believe we have with us here the list of people who have agreed to sit on the committee.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): And the organizations they represent.

Mr. Allan Rock: Yes. We have it here. I will pass it around in a few minutes.

Second, the committee will deal directly with me, the Minister, and not with officials. I will personally work with the committee.

Third, we have chosen to create an advisory committee because this kind of approach has worked for us in the past. Two years ago, I created an advisory committee on HIV and AIDS. We are in the process of creating an advisory committee on tobacco. We have created an advisory committee on the health of Native people. I found these committees to be very worthwhile, since they helped me better understand the issues and where I stood. I respect their work. I meet directly with these committees two or three times a year and I provide them with the appropriate practical support by putting at their disposal an office which already exists within the department, and I make all their reports and recommendations public.

Today, I spent the lunch hour with an advisory committee on science. This committee operates within the department, more specifically within the Health Protection Branch. The committee is chaired by Dr. Roberta Bondar, an astronaut, and has 20 members with international reputations. The job of these people is to scrutinize with a critical eye Health Canada's scientific capabilities.

I have always found these committees very useful and have always respected their role. I have always appointed people with experience and insight, and I have always listened to them and followed their advice.

The people we have invited to become members of this committee not only represent their communities, but are also outspoken. Everyone will listen to their recommendations and what they have to say. I will ask them, as I did with the other advisory committees, to constructively criticize my department.

• 1645

I hope this will be a very good addition to our resources, which will help us meet our obligations under Section 41.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): Thank you, Mr. Minister.

On behalf of members of this committee, I would like to thank you for having spent this time with us. We realize we have kept you a little too long, but, believe me, your testimony has provided us with a wealth of information.

Is it the desire of the committee to continue the meeting? I believe that Ms. Burch said she could stay a few more minutes. Is that right, Ms. Burch?

Ms. Laurette Burch: No.

The Joint Chair (Ms. Raymonde Folco): Is it the wish of committee members to continue this meeting or do you feel we have enough information for now?

The Joint Chair (Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool): I would like to thank you as well, Mr. Minister. I would also like to thank you for your commitment to official bilingualism.

The meeting is adjourned.